96 replies to this topic

[Aegis Kleais]

The Medium (andany other chassis dumb enough to cross me) fits perfectly on the bottom of my Wolf's foot.

Edited by Aegis Kleaisâ„¢, 14 March 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[Helmer]

Aegis Kleais™, on 14 March 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

The Medium (andany other chassis dumb enough to cross me) fits perfectly on the bottom of my Wolf's foot.

Just remember you said that.

It might not be the first day, it might not be the first month.... but somewhere, sometime.... you're going to get an SRM6 salvo to whats left of your rear torso, and then you'll remember and think.... I did this to myself.

See you on the battlefield.

Edited by Helmer, 14 March 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[Aegis Kleais]

Helmer, on 14 March 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Just remember you said that.

It might not be the first day, it might not be the first month.... but somewhere, sometime.... you're going to get an SRM6 salvo to whats left of your rear torso, and then you'll remember and think.... I did this to myself.

See you on the battlefield.

As long as I've taken down my fair share for that life, all good things must come to an end.

BUT HAHA B*tches! I have 2 more lives and I'm coming for YOU now!

[GoLambo]

The thing that really gets me is that the only medium mechs we've seen so far are slow in their base configurations. The Centurion and Hunchie only reach 64kph which is no faster than any heavy mech, and the real "advantage" of these mediums only ends up being that they're cheaper than equivalent heavy mech at 3.5 million cbills a pop to a typical heavies 6 million. Now you could play with this a bit and say hey, mediums get much better turn rates and all that jazz, but I don't know if it would make up the difference unless they were weighted differently (no pun) in the match maker. A Centurion is simply not a match for an Orion, it's not even a better scout! Few mediums in 3049 break the mold of 64 to 86kph, and a lot of the heavies can keep up with that while mounting more of everything.

[Midgie]

I find it funny that this thread exists. Just the other day I was thinking about how best to deploy a company of mechs under the MWO roles. This is what I came up with (mind you this is just my initial thoughts).

It's not meant to be ironclad, just a suggestion, but what you see is that every lance has what I call a "standoff" mech. It's meant to fill in the weak spot in the lance. Scout mechs tend to be lightly armored and armed. The heavies and assaults in the attack lance lack mobility. The mechs in the support lance are lower in armor and often lack short range power. All three of these lances could easily use a medium to fill that role. The scout lance could use a Chameleon, the attack lance a Hunchback, and the support lance a Centurian. All of these could fill the standoff role as well as the role of the lance that it's a part of. As a sort of jack-of-all-trades, the medium seems to me to have a place in MWO.

Edited by Midgie, 14 March 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[Aegis Kleais]

I played SWAT4 a while back, and let me tell you, true battlefield-proven, tested, tried and true tactics that have been honed through live fire are what's going to make this game enjoyable for me, even if we lose. As long as I saw the team working as one, I'm a happy camper.

[HighlandWolf]

Oh yeah, if we can have multiple mechs...several of mine will be mediums. They are great mechs to have in almost any lance, heavy stuff for light lances, great scouts for heavy and assault lances .. all with good firepower decent armour and great speed. Definitelyworth people thinking seriously about keeping them around...good medium can easily take out a heavy, couple of mediums can take out an assault. I know a bunch of you will disagree but you dont know how good mediums are if thats the case

[Outlaw2]

In a world with no assaults. Mediums are the heavies
In a world with no assaults or heavies. Mediums are the assaults
Of course if your selection has no restrictions this will never play out.
In BTU a big advantage of the mediums was that they were economical and could be used for all sorts of roles. Roles it maybe wasn't the best at, but beggars couldn't be choosers. But if you have a wide selection to choose from with no restrictions, you'll chose the best for each role, and I don't see mediums filling the best-of spot for many roles

Edited by =Outlaw=, 14 March 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[GoLambo]

Midgie, on 14 March 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

Stuff about deployment.

Thats a smart chart, but I've gotta ask in relation to my previous comment, how does a Hunchback add mobility to an Assault group of heavy mechs already moving at 64kph? Why not just use a heavy mech of the same speed bracket? Or even an assault, like the Victor, which is basically a Hunchback with BETTER mobility (jump jets), BETTER armor, and MORE weapons? Outside of fast mediums its really hard to find a place for 4/6, or 64kph medium mechs.

[MrDred]

A word before we start: all of my conclusions come from playing MW4:M in multiplayer. These are my personal opinions , but those are *not* just assumptions. Its an opinion based on hard earned experience about what works and what won't work - at least in that environment. I guess that passes as a reference but be reminded that this are personal opinions and other people with the same or even more experience might have a totally different opinion. Most of us learned long ago that, even if we do not share a certain viewpoint of how things should be done, we can still respect each other and acknowledge both appproaches, even if there might be reasons to prefer one above the other. Players are different and in a highly customizable environement, so is playstyle. This is not *the* definite truth. Everybody got to work this out alone, there is no definitive truth.

phros, on 12 March 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

I'm sure those of you who have played the older mechwarrior games may be wondering this as well. In the past it has all been about the arms race really, the majority of players playing games online getting into heavies and assaults to duke it out. Some of the more skilled pilots messing around in lights.

That is, so i think, a misconception. Whilst it is true that the majority of players has and most likely always will prefer heavies and assaults, all weightclasses have their use.

I tend to assault class myself but thats because my absolutely favourite is the (not jump capable) Warhawk aka Masakari because its a great platform for my favourite weapon, the ER-PPC (wich isn't that high in opinion in the community because of no damage hits, but for me its power, emp shock and range still make it the premier armament). It got punch, it got speed and i like the chassis. But ACTUALLY i like it because i like how it looks. I have many good configs and this is simply my version of a Ferrari. Ironically its a mech rather looked down to capability wise in the community because it lacks jets (wich i never liked - yes, jumpjets are a gamechanger but i don't feel comfortable with that playstyle, i simply don't like it and i never felt i put myself at a disadvantage in a carefully designed mech), is said to have a bad silouette (wich is partly true for easy to hit sides... but then you omit the massively armored arms wich can be raised like in boxing - in fact its maneuverability combined with its shieding arms are the reason for many victories) and the important weapon slots are mostly in the arms wich halves offensive potential should you loose one (wich is true, but it takes real effort to destroy an arm - and, hey... better the arm than the center-torso, right?).

Its a longrange platform wich can fight up close if forced to and you won't run out of ammo. Heatmanagement is tricky in a close-quarter fight but managable.

I have other favourites across all weight classes and i alternate pretty much between the mechs because i can't stick to one too long. Gets you too focused on a certain playing style, but i come back most to my Warhawk, so i am to blame here, too.

However among my other favourites are such mechs like a Hollander 2, a Hunchback and an Uller (as the versed reader has certainly noticed i have a certain preference for hefty ballistics up close and personal - on a sidenote: one of my only two favourites with jumpjets is a Templar with four LBX cannons (2x20s, 2x10s) designed for close combat in city environments and *not* for sniping). And all of them perform exceptionally well for me.

I am not a good sniper. I can aim and i can lead, i can even hit fast lights with PPCs up close (a trait developed during many Warhawk sorties) but i can't aim fast. Despite that i am pretty good at maneuvering, dodging and especially in designing mech configs, so that makes me a natural "brawler".

There are three basic categories: "brawlers" are close combat machines, "snipers" work from range, often with jets to pop up behind cover and vanish to cool down - a technique i never liked, because once i fought an opponent i wanted to fight and not interrupt it with cooldown phases behind a hill, despite being a very effective tactic (so called jumpsnipers or "poptards") and missile boats.

Now, if you want to get to your opponent up close and you face a wall of snipers in a highly defensive location you can't simply lumber over there in a big, slow mech and hope the armor holds. Even if you manage to pull it off you won't be in the shape to do a fight for very long. There are exceptions to this rule (there always are) but this depends mostly on terrain and loadout.

I have a Marauder 2 config packing a very hefty mediumrange punch with a hyper-velocity-cannon 20, two heavylargelasers and a clan ultra-autocannon 10 in the nose. Its at 100 tons and its slow. Normally it would be taken out from afar without ever getting into weapons range. There is a catch, of course. It has jumpjets and can hop over. It really shines in maps with walls. I switch the radar to passive and, jumping over normally impassable walls (snipers wouldn't do this even tho they can because the avoid close combat, so its really a move nobody expects) sneaking into the enemys rear undetected. With an armament able to one-hit kill an Annihilator (even with the one-shot protection, the ultra-AC fires two bursts with a 0,25 second delay) its a nasty surprise and usually creates a lot of panic at the front line.

That being said usually, if you want to get those longrange assaults/heavies you need to evade incoming fire. To do this you need two things: you need speed and you need maneuverability to dodge fire (having a small silouette also makes hitting you harder).

Thats why there is a very real use to the oh-so underpowered light. If you can evade fire (and you need practice for that). They walk right through a firestorm and finish an opponent unscathed. Sure, the lighter, the less punch you pack (there are exceptions of course... Solitare, Wolfhound, etc) and the longer it takes to down an opponent. But if you are good at it you can, depending on the aim of your opponents stay in the fight quite a while right next to them. This is highly skill dependant. There are guys that always hit, there are guys that always evade. Those guys... learn their names and remember well. Its a difference flying against a rookie pilot and a Von Richthofen, so to speak. And it imensely helps survival if you can tell a Von Richtohofen from the average rookie.

All those on-hit hight damage weapons with long reload? Lead weapons, i tell you (except for large lasers, but then there is reflective armor and electronic gadgets to work around those). Skilled pilots want to show off their skill. They want to be near you and dance around you without dying once. Its an ego-thing. Thats why veterans prefer mechs with less weight and more speed.

Al those steps between light and assault depend on preference and skill. And of course, if there are a lor of lights around and you want to hunt them effectively you might prefer a med.

Weightclasses work. It seems biased, especially to nerw players, but it you look at the mechanic in-depth its perfect.

And thats only brawlers, we havent even started on missiles boats yet. My absolutely nastiest missile boat is an Owens withunguided rockets. LOTS. It also packs a extra coolant pod. You maneuver behind the enemy team and get ignored... because its a damm light, what can it do, right? The assault in front is so much more threatening. And then when you positioned in the rear you start diving in firing a continous volly till the heat-gauge is deep read and auto-shutdown sequence blares. And then you keep pressing the trigger, override the shutdown and start to release coolant. That results in pretty much attention soon. But if they want to chase a light with superior speed whilst your teams assaults are on their heels... alright with me.

Small mechs win you the game.

phros, on 12 March 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

I am ecstatic that this isn't the case any more, the smaller mech chassis are something I find a lot more interesting than the bigger ones, but I have a query, in MWO where does the medium fit?

Close combat, especially against sniping variants which are really not designed for close combat or extensive weapons usage without a hill to cool down behind. Pack a big cannon. Works for hunting lights, too if you pack a decent engine.

phros, on 12 March 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Why am I asking this?

Well we have this great sounding Role Warfare system, with modules and specialisations that allow a player to customise their mech to their playstyle, or even mix a couple of roles together.

Lights are clearly the goto Scout mech, and I can see them possibly being used as a command platform as well. Having the speed to get out of a dodge might be very handy.

Belive me... in combat scouting plays a very secondary role. Unless the maps are REALLY big to be able to make use of all that speed. But i fear then the pace of the game for the heavies will suffer. Wolf style combat drops help, to.

I also hope they include something like frozen rivers where heavy mechs can break in and also lasers can melt the surface.

phros, on 12 March 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Heavies and Assaults are clearly the Attackers and the Defenders, with the Heavies probably leaning a little more to attack roles due to speed issues. They are good candidates for a command platform as well with the heavy armour and weight allowances for possibly heavy command modules.

All are attackers. The question is how to do it. Large, slow mechs are inviting focused fire from entire lances dug into highly defensible positions. You die if you simply walk into there.

Therefore large, slow mechs (or small, slow mechs like the twin-ER-PPC wielding Puma) play the range game, usually outranging other mechs with serious firepower. Works also with fastfiring longrange weapons, such as small-caliber ultra-ACs in open terrain.

For ambushing yourself you probably want jets, but i was never the patient type to be honest.

phros, on 12 March 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

So where does the plucky medium fit in? Looking at the Centurion, he has some solid firepower, but a heavy will always outgun him, he is fast, but not quite as fast as a light, and his armour isn't quite up to scratch compared to a heavy as well.

Am I right in thinking they will be best used in multiple roles? Traditionally (in the fluff) they are pretty much the backbone of this era lances (mediums in general, not soley centurions!), with heavies being Big Deals and assaults catastrophic, this won't quite be the case in MWO, that "arms race" still exists a little. If you can afford a Dragon or an Atlas and you are playing an attacking role, why wouldn't you take one?. Apart from Light Mech Hunters, which they would excel at, I can't find a direct role for them.

I don't have a problem with this, but I would really like to see peoples thoughts, where do you see the Centurion fitting into the battle? A fast response defender that can double as a heavier scout? Is flexibility the hallmark of the medium? I hope so.

As you sait the Centurion packs a hefty autocannon up close - wich means also low heat build up (compared to energy loadouts). Its meant to continously pummel an opponent. Speed is good and its a humanoid, so its shape is not that easy to hit, Go find a sniper or a light to feast upon. I wouldn't recommend running into an Annihilator packing something like eight rotary autocannons, tho. Gets you killed fast.

As you getting used to the mech you will survive longer and eventually discover that an ammo dependant ballistic isn't what you need. You will add more ammo and eventually switch to pure energy weapons, opening up the can of worms with the heat management in close combat (wich also works - that Solitare i mentioned? Eats assaults for lunch if used properly, all energy weapons).

Weight classes aren't really as much a problem as it seems. It all comes down to speed, size and firepower. If you sacrifice one you gain another. As long as that works all classes will be played. People will still stick to the large ones mostly. People LIKE large mechs. Thats all there is to it, really. Its not a problem of game mechanics and the diversity is always welcome.

Edited by MrDred, 14 March 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[Midgie]

golambo, on 14 March 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Thats a smart chart, but I've gotta ask in relation to my previous comment, how does a Hunchback add mobility to an Assault group of heavy mechs already moving at 64kph? Why not just use a heavy mech of the same speed bracket? Or even an assault, like the Victor, which is basically a Hunchback with BETTER mobility (jump jets), BETTER armor, and MORE weapons? Outside of fast mediums its really hard to find a place for 4/6, or 64kph medium mechs.

lol I said it was a first thought. Actually the speed thing was an attempt to not leave out mechs like the Commando and the Panther. Personally, I'd rather see faster mechs in my scout lance. And I do know that a fast heavies exist and would also fill a lot of those roles, but I think people will quickly realize just how big a liability Inner Sphere XL engines can be. I also am making a guess about how slow a heavy mech's torso twist and turning speed might be.
All this stuff is just speculation and daydreaming until the game comes out anyway.

Edited by Midgie, 14 March 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[J0anna]

I have thought about this and and looking forward towards which way PGi is leaning. For example they could go with maximum weight for a 12 member lance (i.e. you're limited to x tons for 12 mechs, y tons for 10, z tons for 8, etc) which would approximate space/tonnage limitations of dropships). Another way is limiting class (i.e. x number of assault class in a 12 mech group, this would approximate the makeup of IS companies). There are other ways to do this also.

However the role of mediums, while not clearly defined should be valuable. BT doesn't have weapon sizes per say (i.e. a medium mech carrying a large laser is the same weapon as the one carried by an assault mech), however the extreme focus of facing in BT adds significant use to medium and scout mechs. Large maps help make scout mechs more useful (especially if limiting the amount of satallite data), scouts can be deadly if they get behind any mech due to the (mostly) paper thin armor in the rear of mechs. Mediums could be used to be flanking mechs (protecting your flanks as well as attacking their flanks, with the goal of getting rear shots. For example the Hunchback's AC/20 should be able to one shot almost any mech's rear center armor and get some criticals, probably enough for a kill. On large maps, speed should matter. Until we see this play out, we won't really know, but the fact that they are focusing on making mixed commands useful is a good sign.

[Jacob Carlyle]

I was thinking we may well be getting a bidding system, where your rewards for minimising your drop-weight are massive.
Sure, you could take the 100t Atlas, but even for winning you'll barely make the money to cover the repair costs, but if you bring an 80t Victor, you get two (three, four?) times the c-bills.
Winning with a 50t Mech when your opponents have all brought Assault Mechs could reward you with millions, enough to buy new Mechs from a single engagement (maybe).

Plus, with the clans incoming in less than a year, it would make sense to get people used to the idea of trying to get the job done with the fewest possible resources before the Green Budgies, Phantom Teddies and Mist Kitties (oh yes, I went there!) drop on us.

Edit: stupid filter won't let me use the plural of Pussycat...

Edited by Jacob Carlyle, 15 March 2012 - 08:43 AM.

[UncleKulikov]

Taking the Dragon as an example, it's a medium but with a high base speed. That means if you kit it up as a scout, it can be a scout hunter due to it's heavier armor. That will be invaluable for counter-intelligence operations, a scout with firepower that can out last other scouts by getting to grips with them.

[MrDred]

Well, you could link radar for one, or at least offer the possibility as an electronic gadget. This would encourage scouting and favour small, fast spotters. A good NARC system for missile tagging and such things would also help. MASC would be a good idea. You know, the works.

I can only stress meds make very efficient brawlers due their combination of maneuverability, speed and firepower in general. Some mechs work differently, tho and usually for a very good reason, like a Nova or Puma, Uller and Panther in the light category for example:

A Nova will jump and have an hefty energy loadout for hoping out of cover and unloading tremendous damage at close to medium range and then try to get rid of the heat.

A Panther will jumpsnipe with long range energy weapons, trying to stay out of reach of the heavier, slower mechs, harassing from a distance and snipe at weakspots whilst giving a small target itself.

A Uller will do the same with a gauss rifle, except that it won't use jets and relies of its low silouette and electronics to strike unexpectedly.

A Puma is the same as an Uller, except that it packs a lot of punch with its twin er-ppcs but has to deal with the heat and is not as fast and has to work more with terrain to keep the distance.


Don't wory too much about it, after my experience it works out well.

Edited by MrDred, 15 March 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Garth Erlam]

Keep in mind we don't just balance with: damage; speed; armour. There are other factors (torso twist speed, arm speed, etc).

[LordKnightFandragon]

Well, I have a MW book from some WizkidsGames offer they had going that says Mediums are the like the advance guard...they roll up first and engage the enemy, lock them into a fight and buy time for Bigger units to roll in and help them out and do the real fighting. I figure mediums could do that in MWO. THey have slightly more armor then a Light but are still not slow and are not total wussies and they can pack decent firepower. I like Medium class mechs. I hate the fraility of Lights and when im bored with Heavies and the slow assaults, mediums are the class i turn to when I just wanna just dork around and not be serious....or else when I want to roll in a faast mech and do some support.

[Azantia]

Garth Erlam, on 15 March 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Keep in mind we don't just balance with: damage; speed; armour. There are other factors (torso twist speed, arm speed, etc).

This is where I see the big difference...Overall Agility of the mech you are piloting that DOES make a difference. If I can maintain 64 kph in a medium mech and still turn tighter than you, have better acceleration to hit that 64 kph, and have a greater/faster torso twist speed, that means more of my reticule on target, and an easier time finding and getting into your blind spots where its difficult for you to return fire.

[Garth Erlam]

Azantia, on 15 March 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

This is where I see the big difference...Overall Agility of the mech you are piloting that DOES make a difference. If I can maintain 64 kph in a medium mech and still turn tighter than you, have better acceleration to hit that 64 kph, and have a greater/faster torso twist speed, that means more of my reticule on target, and an easier time finding and getting into your blind spots where its difficult for you to return fire.

That is exactly why, right now, a Hunchback can defeat an Atlas.

[TeaL3af]

Considering at least one of the modes has the whole "get killed, stay dead" thing and others have limited lives the mediums versatility will be pretty useful. They can replace a dead Heavy or Light and do their job fairly well.

The map design in this game also appears to allow for more flanking due to better cover, mediums would be great for this. They pack enough fire power to damage Heavy and Assault mechs if you spec them correctly and can escape before the enemy can retaliate.