12 replies to this topic

[Zakatak]

16 players go up against 16 players.

The first team has a lance for each weight category (light/med/heavy/assault), each lance serving one purpose.
The second team has 1 light/medium/heavy/assault in each lance, each having the same total mass.

Which team would do better? Which style would allow the easiest communications and the best application of tactics?

Edited by Zakatak, 13 March 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[Miroku2235]

Personally I think the specialized lances would do better, the ones with all lights/mediums/etc.

Because if you are part of a scout lance, and that lance has an assault, in order to keep your unit's firepower and tactical strength at full then you are only going to travel as a pack at your slowest mech's top speed.

Essentially that Jenner that could haul *** across the battlefield now has to plod along at, or just slightly over, the top speed of your Atlas or whatever assault it is buddied up with. A lance of Jenners and other such fast mechs would be able to book it at max speed together though, keeping their max firepower as well as being able to cover large distances quickly without getting bogged down waiting for their buddies to catch up.

[Death Blossom]

Combined arms can apply to any group large or small. It would come down to the leader being able to effectively use a combined lance. Without a dedicated light screening lance, you would have to rely on reconaissance in force. I do not see it being very effective myself.

[Jack Gammel]

It would really depend on quality of players involved, but I would imagine that team 2 would have some advantages. This assumes that both teams have good command at the lance level of course, but by having each lance capable of flexible maneuvers on its own and the option to work with the other lances for large scale breakthroughs team 2 would be stronger. Team 1 isn't bad, especially assuming that they have good lance commanders as well, but they would be very reliant on a competent CO and would need to coordinate as an entire group for full effect.

[Death Blossom]

Jack Gammel, on 13 March 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

It would really depend on quality of players involved, but I would imagine that team 2 would have some advantages. This assumes that both teams have good command at the lance level of course, but by having each lance capable of flexible maneuvers on its own and the option to work with the other lances for large scale breakthroughs team 2 would be stronger. Team 1 isn't bad, especially assuming that they have good lance commanders as well, but they would be very reliant on a competent CO and would need to coordinate as an entire group for full effect.

Team 2 would need 4 great lance COs. Team 1 needs 1 good CO and 3 average lance COs taking orders. Team 2 would need to mass their mechs for every engagement.

Take these scenarios:

A team 2 lance consisting of 1 assault/heavy/med/light comes across a light mech screening force. Team 2 might be able to pursue with their own med/light. Team 1 pulls back from the heavy/assault and jumps on the pursuers. Team 2 is down 2 mechs.

Team 2 lance meets up with a medium lance, same as above.

Team 2 meets up with a heavy lance, heavy lance concentrates on distorting the battlefield ratio: kill light, 4:3. Kill medium, 4:2. Kill heavy and lose heavy, 3:1, potentially 2:1. Kill assault, 2:0 or 1:0. Should always be a win.

Team 2 meets up with an assault lance and gets slaughtered.

[El Loco]

Death Blossom, on 13 March 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Team 2 would need 4 great lance COs. Team 1 needs 1 good CO and 3 average lance COs taking orders. Team 2 would need to mass their mechs for every engagement.

Take these scenarios:

A team 2 lance consisting of 1 assault/heavy/med/light comes across a light mech screening force. Team 2 might be able to pursue with their own med/light. Team 1 pulls back from the heavy/assault and jumps on the pursuers. Team 2 is down 2 mechs.

Team 2 lance meets up with a medium lance, same as above.

Team 2 meets up with a heavy lance, heavy lance concentrates on distorting the battlefield ratio: kill light, 4:3. Kill medium, 4:2. Kill heavy and lose heavy, 3:1, potentially 2:1. Kill assault, 2:0 or 1:0. Should always be a win.

Team 2 meets up with an assault lance and gets slaughtered.

That.

But, usually you have more than one weight class in each lance. There are medium scouts, there are medium, heavy, and assault brawlers/supporters, and there usually is a command lance with a fair mix of mediums, heavies, and assaults. It's basically the combination of light and high end heavy/assault, that ruins your scenario. Unless you have a Charger in your scout lance, the 70+ t 'Mechs are going to slow down the unit a fair bit, most lights on the other hand will reduce the firepower of any of your other lances.

[Harlequin Wolf]

I personally would put my money on the class specific lances, but it really would depend on the individual skill of the players overall.

[Pvt Dancer]

To be honest, I think team 1 will win. This is because team 2 will be scattered while team one will be concentrated together.

What will happen is the Scouts will go off and do their job. This means the ones in team two will leave their slower lacne-mates behind and will scatter while team one will all be scattered but in the same lance. when the scouts run into each other, it should be a dog fight, 50/50.

The mediums, heavies, and assaults in team 1, depending on their moduals, will be traveling together and thus be able to fire on the same targets, taking them down quicker 4 vs 3. Sure, maybe the Medium Lance might not win, but the lance they face will have been mauled heavily. You have to assume that the mixed 3 mechs of Team 2 will break the map down into quadrants versus thirds of team 1. This will probably mean one of the fights might be 6 vs 4, but will still be 2 mediums, 2 heavies, and 2 Assaults. That is not a bad fight for the Heavy lance and very do-able for the assault.... as the 2nd lance will not be in the fight right away.Now the Moduals don't matter as much.

It may be close, but I will stand by the massed fire of 4 Heavies and Assaults vs a group consisting of a Medium, Heavy, and Assault. The mixed group will just not be able to match the fire power and you have to assume in the first volley the Assault is going down, but Team 2 will not be able to muster enough firepower to take down a mech from team 1 fast enough to keep up.

[Carebear]

I dont know how they made this but who knows. Do we know if theres possibility for a lucky shot and you can destroy something very valuable with one shot? First shot and your PPC is damaged!

Edited by Carebear, 14 March 2012 - 01:30 AM.

[geck0 icaza]

Well neither. Both sides are the extreme in terms of balance and thus not balanced.

Having an "assault" lance made up of assaults and heavies, 2 "maneuver" lances with a mix of med-heavy mechs, and a harassment lance built with speed in mind can have lights-mids. Over all the unit as a whole can perform well together, but can also operate independently.

In a grand movement you can have the assault lance flanked by the maneuver lances and have the harassment lance in front fanning out ahead. The fast mech in the maneuver lances will move outward and away from the formation to form an extended flank guard to give early warning of enemy attacks. When contact is made, (regardless of which side its from) the first sub-unit to make contact's job is to relay enemy strength and maintain contact while holding them in place while not over extending themselves. The side units (or new side units if the flank made first contact) reform and maneuver to the flank of the contacting unit and push around the enemy while maintaining some type of extended flank guard for themselves. If by that point the enemy has not been over run, the big hitters should be arriving and dealing with the situation by filling in where they are needed.

Multi unit combat maneuvers 101

[Nik Van Rhijn]

You only have three lances - it's 12 v 12. It depends on what the objectives and load limits for the drops are. I like to have two lances with a pair of fast lights and a pair of fast mediums with a lance of heavies/assaults. If you have a defensive mission or an assault mission then that would change.

[Jack Gammel]

Death Blossom, on 13 March 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Team 2 would need 4 great lance COs. Team 1 needs 1 good CO and 3 average lance COs taking orders. Team 2 would need to mass their mechs for every engagement.

Take these scenarios:

A team 2 lance consisting of 1 assault/heavy/med/light comes across a light mech screening force. Team 2 might be able to pursue with their own med/light. Team 1 pulls back from the heavy/assault and jumps on the pursuers. Team 2 is down 2 mechs.

Team 2 lance meets up with a medium lance, same as above.

Team 2 meets up with a heavy lance, heavy lance concentrates on distorting the battlefield ratio: kill light, 4:3. Kill medium, 4:2. Kill heavy and lose heavy, 3:1, potentially 2:1. Kill assault, 2:0 or 1:0. Should always be a win.

Team 2 meets up with an assault lance and gets slaughtered.

Hmmm...did I or did I not say that this assumes good command at all levels for both sides? Oh. I did? Well, ok then.

You are also not taking into account the possibility that a mission might have multiple objectives, like holding different points on the map, or taking a flag from the enemy while defending your own base. While Team 1 might choose to keep their forces grouped as 4 distinct weight classes, each lance can only do one thing really well. That one assault lance of 4 assault mechs might be really dangerous, but it can only be at one place at a time, and its not going anywhere fast.

Also, the ratios you list hold no real water. 4 heavy mechs do not automatically equal any number of some other weight class. Also, are we just assuming that team 2 would not be working as a cohesive unit with the capacity to fall back and call for reinforcements? They would just send a single light or medium mech to be vaporized in front of 4 heavies?

geck0 icaza, on 14 March 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

Well neither. Both sides are the extreme in terms of balance and thus not balanced.

Having an "assault" lance made up of assaults and heavies, 2 "maneuver" lances with a mix of med-heavy mechs, and a harassment lance built with speed in mind can have lights-mids. Over all the unit as a whole can perform well together, but can also operate independently.

In a grand movement you can have the assault lance flanked by the maneuver lances and have the harassment lance in front fanning out ahead. The fast mech in the maneuver lances will move outward and away from the formation to form an extended flank guard to give early warning of enemy attacks. When contact is made, (regardless of which side its from) the first sub-unit to make contact's job is to relay enemy strength and maintain contact while holding them in place while not over extending themselves. The side units (or new side units if the flank made first contact) reform and maneuver to the flank of the contacting unit and push around the enemy while maintaining some type of extended flank guard for themselves. If by that point the enemy has not been over run, the big hitters should be arriving and dealing with the situation by filling in where they are needed.

Multi unit combat maneuvers 101

Ultimately, this^.

But sure, if all Team 1 has to do is walk around the map as a single massive mob of mechs on a seek and destroy mission for Team 2 they will probably hold the advantage. Maybe. Of course, the maps could end up being big enough that a single unit of scout mechs working together will not be able to effectively recon the enemy positions, forcing even the lance of 4 scout mechs to split up anyway.

Edited by Jack Gammel, 14 March 2012 - 05:41 AM.

[Fachxphyre]

it all really comes down to communication. i anticipate that there will be cross-chatter between lances, thus allowing easy coordination at the individual level, let alone between lance commanders. that being said, i would anticipate that the team with mixed weight lances would tend to separate, the faster light mechs leaving the plodding heavy and assault mechs behind and the mediums as a defensive screen/quick response force/commo relay, effectively creating a scenario more similar to the second team with lances of roughly equal weights.