64 replies to this topic

[Pht]

Sp12, on 16 March 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Chance is bad if the game is meant to be competitive.

Chance is not bad in and of itself nor does it nullify competitiveness.

It is only "bad" in this sense when it is taking something away from the player of the game that the player should actually have control of, and whether your MASC unit rips your 'mechs leg myomers and structure apart in this ten seconds vs in the next ten seconds isn't something that a MechWarrior can control or closely account for.

[Sp12]

Pht, on 18 March 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Chance is not bad in and of itself nor does it nullify competitiveness.

1st part is debatable, 2nd is not. Basically by definition random events ruin competitieness.

Lets have my scout get completely crippled in the first 10 seconds of MASC and have the other team's mech suffer no damage while it gets behind us. Yeah sounds awesome for even a serious pub, let alone a tournament.

[Helmer]

A combination of heat and lockup please.

[guardiandashi]

Sp12, on 18 March 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

1st part is debatable, 2nd is not. Basically by definition random events ruin competitieness.

Lets have my scout get completely crippled in the first 10 seconds of MASC and have the other team's mech suffer no damage while it gets behind us. Yeah sounds awesome for even a serious pub, let alone a tournament.

exaggerate much?

critical effects of destroyed leg actuators.

damaged hip 1/2 movement (rounded up) ignore all other actuator damage for affected leg for movement penalties 2nd hip crit (other leg) reduces speed to 0 mech is NOT considered immobile however +2 penalty to piloting checks per damaged hip
damaged upper leg actuator, -1 movement and a 1 point penalty on piloting checks per damaged actuator (1 per leg)
damaged lower leg actuator -1 movement and +1 piloting check penalty
damaged foot actuator -1 movement and +1 piloting checks

plus each leg has 2 additional crits that COULD be damaged on a masc malfunction

so the absolute worst case scenario is your mech is effectively immobilized ~1-2 kph ish which has only a 1 in 36 chance of occuring (hip crit on both legs)
much more likely ~50% chance would be to loose 2 movement points by loosing an upper leg, lower leg, or foot actuator in both legs
~1/3 chance to take the hit in one of the non actuator crits in each leg (assuming there is equipment that can be damaged there.)

so all in all while it is BAD to have the MASC cause crits on a malfunction it is not automatically crippling. and the possible damaging effects offset the bonuses that would otherwise be too massive.

oh and just to make it even more "fun" just because the MASC may have caused damage to componants in the legs? unless the MASC system itself is critically damaged it appears that it would remain functional

[Gamri]

i was thinking about how masc might be implemented, and thought about this approach.

masc has a separate heat style scale with three color coded phases to it green,yellow,red. when in green your chances of critical shutdown are very minimal and it rises the longer you have masc turned on. going to yellow then red. once in red you can pretty much guarantee that your masc is going to shut down.

the cooldown rate of the masc system would be identical to however long you had the system on. but you would also be able to turn it back on at any point which would start the "heat up" effect

now the results of a masc lock up/freeze/shutdown. have it be the exact opposite of what masc does. when masc is operational it doubles a mechs top end speed. when it fails it cuts the top end speed in half

Edited by Gamri, 06 October 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[xXDivoXx]

Gamri is TureBorn This is How it should Work!

[Nitemare111]

Increasing heat combined with possibility of crashing might be the way to go. The whole point of MASC is that it's risky, and potentially deadly.

If you're willing to accept the risks, you can get a huge amount of use out of it. Have the heat increase top out at, say, 80%. However, the chances of lockup, crashing, and being motionless and damaged for a short period of time should start at about 50% heat.

Risk/Reward, with the added possibility of becoming a laser pinata or missile magnet.

[Curly Fride]

I'm surprised nobody has thought of adding the factor of
REPAIRING THE DAMAGED MYOMER BUNDLES!
Speaking logically, a device that's used to push something beyond its safety limit is gonna break something. It might not be now, it might be after that fourth sortie without maintenance, you shift your Jenny out of park and something snaps in the left hip. Speaking personally, this is how I think it should work, which balances out each idea.
1. Upon activation, there is an instant increase in base heat, maybe the equivalent of taking three to five heatsinks offline, depending on the class.
2. The longer you have MASC active, the more heat is generated. For the first five seconds, no additional heat is generated, but after that, heat starts to rise at about on the level of firing a medium laser every two seconds.
3. Your mech becomes more sensitive to the terrain and is more likely to stumble during a shift in elevation or during a turn. If you try to shift from flat terrain to a hillside, you'll probably end up with dirt in your face.
4. MOST IMPORTANTLY mechs that use MASC have to replace the myomer bundles that were damaged. This gets more expensive for the longer durations that MASC is used. It's feasible to use MASC in 10-15 second bursts with minimal increase in normal repair costs, but if you try to outrun someone for more than 60 seconds, you're gonna have to sell a weapon or two to get your mech fixed.
5. After a certain amount of time of heavy usage without repair, the myomer bundles fail, forcing your mech to limp along at walking speed when at full throttle.

What I'm getting at here is that we have the whole c-bills mechanic in the game, it can be used as a risk/reward/punishment factor in this given situation.

Edited by Curly Fride, 28 October 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[ManDaisy]

I like the idea of heat and damage to "critical location" hps, such as the leg actuators. <--- click my shameless slef promotion of masc link in my sig.

: ( they got rid of some of my old post so I can't link to em.

Edited by ManDaisy, 29 October 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

I like the idea of internal damage to the legs on prolonged masc use. I would like to offer an alternative suggestion based on that idea.

Instead of damaging the internal structure the prolonged use of masc starts causing critical damage to the leg actuators. As if they are taking damage from weapons fire. After a certain amount of time the actuators would take critical hits with at a base critical chance and damage level. The longer the player uses them the high those values get. Any damage taken would be applied to the actuators.

A pilot can decrease the chance of damage by not using masc. The pilot would have to travel at normal operating speeds to allow the muscles to cool off. Cool down could last twice as long as the time masc was used. This could work similar to the heat scale.

Edit.
I am not fond of the heat idea for two reasons.

1) MWLL uses a heat build up to balance masc. While it is a good idea I would like MWO to use a different system to distinguish them from MWLL.

2) MASC does not effect heat build up in battletech. The risk of braking your mechs muscles and actuators due to over stress is canon.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 29 October 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[ManDaisy]

I dont think masc should do critical hp actuator damage until you go above 100% of your normal speed. No reason to take damage when you can do that normally. As per heat, it simply follows the scale, walking 1 heat, running 2 heat, masc 4 heat.

Shamess self promotion: http://mwomercs.com/...implimentation/

Edited by ManDaisy, 29 October 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[ebea51]

Personally i would go for BOTH internal damage AND heat generation.

Your pushing your internals AND engine to FAR beyond their designed capabilities.
That would DAMAGE them and cause excessive HEAT.

To ballance it, i would make the damage minimal and the heat more of a problem and if you do damage your internals your max speed and turning capability is reduced for the entire of the match - damage effects 'stacking' with continued use.
Would increase your repair bill a LOT too...

[General Taskeen]

It should only be heat build up and damage IF running MASC in critical heat, like MW:LL and MW4. No more rolling dice like UAC's in this game please. This gives players more control. *Activates MASC, rolls 2D2, Explodes.....* <-I hate this, also why my hate boils for dice rolling uac. Also here's a video, its simplicity is beautiful

Edited by General Taskeen, 31 May 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

I voted for increased chance to cripple...But only temporarily.

I think the longer MASC is engaged, the higher the chance your mech's legs will lock up, completely immobilizing it for 30 seconds. While immobilized, torso and arm actuators work as well as weapons systems...the 'mech just can't walk until leg actuators come back online.

[General Taskeen]

Bhael Fire, on 31 May 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

I voted for increased chance to cripple...But only temporarily.

Let's put it this way folks. Randomness or chances are going to cripple something, even if temporarily, like the Flea which will already be DOA unless it comes much later in the balance cycle. Running around with less than 100 points of armor (with maximum of 138 mountable), and suddenly POOF, your chance to go fast just rolled bad with your tiny 20 ton Paper Mech. Boom you're dead. MASC should be entirely skill based. You go fast as long as you watch your heat, and if you use it while in critical (or say over 80% heat), it breaks permanently. I.E., the simplicity of the MW4 MASC implementation.

Edited by General Taskeen, 31 May 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

General Taskeen, on 31 May 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Let's put it this way folks. Randomness or chances are going to cripple something, even if temporarily, like the Flea which will already be DOA unless it comes much later in the balance cycle. Running around with less than 100 points of armor (with maximum of 138 mountable), and suddenly POOF, your chance to go fast just rolled bad with your tiny 20 ton Paper Mech. Boom you're dead. MASC should be entirely skill based. You go fast as long as you watch your heat, and if you use it while in critical (or say over 80% heat), it breaks permanently. I.E., the simplicity of the MW4 MASC implementation.

That's just too much of a sure thing and therefore easily abused. Anyone can watch their heat level and disengage MASC before it pops.

The risky nature of MASC is what makes it work. If it's a no-brainer like just watching your heat, then there's really no reason NOT to employ MASC (unless it just stupidly bulky).

In other words, it takes more skill to know when you're pushing your luck than it does to watch a temperature gauge.

For example, something like this:

0-10 seconds = 0% chance of malfunction.Then for each second after 10, the chance of malfunction increases by 5%.

That way, the pilot must use skill and internal timing to determine if they are past the window of operational safety and use their best judgment if it's worth pushing it past that point. This is a lot more interesting and provides better game play rather than simply watching a heat gauge and pushing the off button when the 'mech tells you to.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 31 May 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

I voted heat. I think a sprint boost to a location with a heat penalty so you cant go pewpew in someones back is a fair trade.

[Bhael Fire]

In reality, I'd be totally fine if MASC simply generated heat. I'd prefer if there were actual risk involved in using MASC to limit its use, but whatever.

[General Taskeen]

Bhael Fire, on 31 May 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

That's just too much of a sure thing and therefore easily abused. Anyone can watch their heat level and disengage MASC before it pops.

Random Chance is not determined by skill. You have to "guess" when it would happen if there is any arbitrary chance applied. If there is a 5% chance at any one moment, then it will happen at any one moment, although more unlikely than say 50%. It takes away control away from the player and lets the game decide when something will happen. In other words, a function such as that would be extremely frustrating for a skill-based game when MASC already has a good implementation in other Mech games without overcomplicating or frustrating out-of-player-hands procedures. A lot of speculation ALSO comes from people's fear that the MASC will be allowed on everything and thus, super fast everything, like Light Mechs. I'm taking a guess here, but an educating one, that MASC will be treated in the exact same way as I predicted for ECM; In that it will only be mountable on a Mech that had a variant that used it. At most, we will see the Flea and the CTF-3L upon its initial release, if they add it, otherwise they will give it to the CTF-1X which has the same exact hardpoint layout.

Edited by General Taskeen, 31 May 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Heat seems the most reasonable approach, I would say a steady heat increase AND a reduction to overall heat efficiency, so stacking a bazillion heat sinks wont let you lap around the map doing 150kph firing a ERPPC constantly.

The flip side of course being a light could slap it on at the begining of the match and jet across the map to start capping and your pretty much screwed if no one can get a solid bead on a MASCer in a conquest match. All they gotta do is backcap and when the living are outnumbered by the dead simply race around gobbling up resource nodes.