166 replies to this topic

[geck0 icaza]

Siilk, on 03 April 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

@GaussDragon: The problem is, you can't please everyone. You can make a game, that appeals to the tastes of the majority, and that would be Call of Duty. You can make something for hardcore gamers, that would be a classic Rainbow6. But you can't just throw in some "arcade mode" into R6 and hope everyone would love it. Hardcore gamers have no need for such mode and for casual gamers it's still not a CoD-grade game. We all seen R6 Vegas. It wasn't a failure but classic R6 fans loathe it and casual gamers were hardly interested in it for too long.

This is really important thing to consider. As we have seen multiple CoD clones in an attempt to make money and appeal to larger group of gamers (both reasons not completely bad mind you) we still refer to them as clones. The reason is you can like a game but at the end of the day why not play the more polished and popular version? These games have no identity to themselves. By pushing against the grain of simple, drop in twitch gaming Mechwarrior can maintain it's unique identity. And THAT is what I think has been and will be its biggest strength. You won't be able to call it Hawken with slower non-flyer mechs, or reign of thunder with more weapons. When someone asks what MWO is like your going to say its not like anything else out there.

NHUA may only be A step, but its a step in the wrong direction.

[Pht]

NHUA is to a MW video game what Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball was the the dead or alive fighting game series

...

and NHUA seems to be played for some of the same reasons... "ooo. pretty." Only in this case, it's watching everything blow up when you hit the "kill" button.

There's no need for the devs to spend time making an NHUA mode when there's plenty of other fodder for those who only want to play an MINO (mechwarrior in name only) game.

[Siilk]

@GaussDragon:

Ok, I'll try to be brief. My points:

* You can't make one game that would please everyone.
* Having NHUA and HOLA at once would effectively be arcade and sim played in the same meta-universe. Neither is better per se(regardless of my personal tastes, people who love mechassault have all the rights in the world to love it), but they tend to play differently.
* those games would attract different kind of players. I agree, there could be some amount of players enjoying both types of games, but mose of them would pick either one or another a their "main" way to play MWO.
* Having effectively two large groups of players, playing in the same meta-verse would lead to the following: PGI would have to appeal to both groups as both are full of potential buyers.
* It would be bad for MWO because: arcade and sim players would be asking for different things to change or add, weapon and chassis balance would have to be done separately for NHUA and HOLA as ammo and heat are often used to balance weapons in BT.
* Such would lead to at least doubled efforts to support the game and could end up in some additions leading to clashing of interests of arcade and sim players.

With that said, I think that if adding optional arcade element of gameplay is considered by PGI, the best possible option would be to make this into a separate game, say Mechassault Online. It could have 3rd person view, no heat and unlimited ammo as well as some other arcade mechanics involved(single healthbar, damage regeneration etc), without affecting MWO balance altogether. It would require more efforts to make but in the end PGI would have a separate product, oriented to a more casual players without harming MWO in any way.

[Aegis Kleais]

GaussDragon, on 03 April 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Thank you AG. Siiilk's assertion that all NHUA players never play HOLA sent me flying off the handle. It's such complete and total nonsense. I'm sure you as well as I have played with countless numbers of people who played and enjoyed both.

Glad I struck a bell.... but who's 'AG'?

When I wanna blow stuff up I play NHUA
When I want a more tactical strategic gameplay (and I do loves me that), I play HOLA.

Having both options will always, IMO, be better than 1 or the other.

[Havoc2]

Aegis Kleais™, on 03 April 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Glad I struck a bell.... but who's 'AG'?

When I wanna blow stuff up I play NHUA
When I want a more tactical strategic gameplay (and I do loves me that), I play HOLA.

Having both options will always, IMO, be better than 1 or the other.

I play both when I wanna blow stuff up.

Now, in ANY of the previous MW incarnations (MW3 MAY have had CTF but I don't remember, it was too long ago) except for MW4 you fought 4v4 or 2v2 to decide who won the match. It didn't matter whether the match was for recon, defence, assault, whatever. Success/failure depending on your ability to blow the other guy up. There were drop limits and tonnage, some of the planetary leagues I played in restricted which chassis you had on which planet, or what tonnage you could load up on your dropship to attack. But it all boiled down to kill = win, die = lose.

NHUA was introduced in MW4 (that's when I played it anyway, may have been in MW3. Wasn't in MW2 unless you created your own map with extreme cold environment IIRC). It was pure unabashed shoot 'em. No alpha and look for cover while you cool down, no "oh crap I've got 2 AC20 rounds left I'd better make them count". It was like the hot girl in high school that was a tramp. You'd take her out for some fun and entertainment but you wouldn't want to stick around for long.

What the problem is for people I don't understand. Is it because you were poor at targetting, so you died?
NHUA may have taken out certain strategies like heat and ammo management, but it also introduced other requirements like damage mitigation/spread.
If you're not going to play NHUA, don't get your panties in a bunch because others may want to play it to blow off some steam. Or play it exclusively.

NHUA won't add another 9 months of development time onto the existing game. Even IF the devs decide to make another universe but NHUA only, it's not like they need to reinvent the wheel to make that happen. Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V, disable heat, disable ammo.


RELAX TT purists.

[CeeKay Boques]

Right dawg, but why just Have NHUA? Why not implement my preference, No Heat, Unlimited Ammo, No Armor, Unlimited Jump Jets and Maximum Throttle? I mean, NHUA is so old school, this is the NEW MechWarrior, and that's why NHUANAUJJMT is the wave of the future. You and your NHUA purists are keeping MWO from being the free space, no holds barred bad *** it can be. What if you could fly into the sun after bombing the russians? LETS DO THIS!!! Crysis already Says "Maximum" before everything, and this is the MAX!!!!!!!!!!! NOBODY SHOULD RELAX, EVER!

*nipples explode*

[GaussDragon]

Siilk, on 03 April 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

@GaussDragon:

* Having NHUA and HOLA at once would effectively be arcade and sim played in the same meta-universe. Neither is better per se(regardless of my personal tastes, people who love mechassault have all the rights in the world to love it), but they tend to play differently.
* Having effectively two large groups of players, playing in the same meta-verse would lead to the following: PGI would have to appeal to both groups as both are full of potential buyers.

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm arguing that the changes/progression in the meta-universe are dictated EXCLUSIVELY by HOLA/no-respawn games. Any games like NHUA would offer limited XP and would have NO BEARING on planet capture and territory progression. I explicitly said that having concurrent meta-games would be messy, and that I'm against it.

Aegis Kleais™, on 03 April 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Glad I struck a bell.... but who's 'AG'?

When I wanna blow stuff up I play NHUA
When I want a more tactical strategic gameplay (and I do loves me that), I play HOLA.

Having both options will always, IMO, be better than 1 or the other.

Haha, sorry, I meant AK.

Technoviking, on 03 April 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Right dawg, but why just Have NHUA? Why not implement my preference, No Heat, Unlimited Ammo, No Armor, Unlimited Jump Jets and Maximum Throttle? I mean, NHUA is so old school, this is the NEW MechWarrior, and that's why NHUANAUJJMT is the wave of the future. You and your NHUA purists are keeping MWO from being the free space, no holds barred bad *** it can be. What if you could fly into the sun after bombing the russians? LETS DO THIS!!! Crysis already Says "Maximum" before everything, and this is the MAX!!!!!!!!!!! NOBODY SHOULD RELAX, EVER!

*nipples explode*

Could you be any less productive in this discussion?

[CeeKay Boques]

GaussDragon, on 03 April 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Could you be any less productive in this discussion?

Yes, I completely can be less productive.

For the boring and Humorless:

Why is NHUA an "OK mode", but a mode where you can fly constantly, or shoot your arms off as rockets, or go maximum speed not ok? Search your heart for whether that is ok with you, and the slippery slope of differences comes immediately to your mind, and the degrees of freedom available in a game. We are defined by our limits. A sim is built on its limits. So why is NHUA an ok limit? Would it still be fun if the Weapon damaged was halved and armor doubled in a NUHA? And if the "I just want to blow stuff up sometimes" is ok, why not "I just want to fly around the map sometimes" "I want my Atlas to go 200kph sometimes" Why might these seem weird, but NUHA ok? Because NUHA has a precedent? Because its MW "canon" now?

You might think the modes I mentioned are silly and useless. As might a person playing "Vanilla" MW might thing NHUA is "silly and useless."

I hope to champion full freedom of all contraints including physics, for that would be fun for me, where as a limited system like NHUA would not.

Is this tongue in cheek? Sure, but the concept is true.

There, nice and structured for ya.

Edited by Technoviking, 03 April 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[GaussDragon]

Technoviking, on 03 April 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Yes, I completely can less productive.

For the boring and Humorless:

Why is NHUA an "OK mode", but a mode where you can fly constantly, or shoot your arms off as rockets, or go maximum speed not ok? Search your heart for whether that is ok with you, and the slippery slope of differences comes immediately to your mind, and the degrees of freedom available in a game., We are defined by our limits. A sim is built on its limits. So why is NHUA an ok limit? Would it still be fun if the Weapon damaged was halved and armor doubled in a NUHA? And if the "I just want to blow stuff up sometimes" is ok, why not "I just want to fly around the map sometimes" "I want my Atlas to go 200kph sometimes" Why might these seem weird, but NUHA ok? Because NUHA has a precedent? Because its MW "canon" now?

You might think the modes I mentioned are silly and useless. As might a person playing "Vanilla" MW might thing NHUA is "silly and useless."

I hope to champion full freedom of all contraints including physics, for that would be fun for me, where as a limited system like NHUA would not.

Is this tongue in cheek? Sure, but the concept is true.

There, nice and structured for ya.

Yes, because in past MechWarrior titles, having the NHUA option was so bad because it meant that we had to deal with the 'rocket arms' option and the 200 KPH Atlases, oh wait, we didn't. Your concept is wrong.

Edited by GaussDragon, 03 April 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[Brakkyn]

Might as well swing and miss for strike three and allow people to turn on invincibility, as well. NHUA is a plague upon the franchise, and we do not need the people who resort to such a style of play to degrade this MechWarrior as it has done the previous ones.

[Aegis Kleais]

See, this is why you cannot use sarcasm, tongue in cheek, etc. online. You can't inflect emotion in text. And because of that, people do/don't take you seriously when you intended otherwise.

[CeeKay Boques]

GaussDragon, on 03 April 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Yes, because in past MechWarrior titles, having the NHUA option was so bad because it meant that we had to deal with the 'rocket arms' option and the 200 KPH Atlases, oh wait, we didn't. Your concept is wrong.

So you went with "Because its Canon." Well done.

[Aegis Kleais]

Brakkyn, on 03 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

Might as well swing and miss for strike three and allow people to turn on invincibility, as well. NHUA is a plague upon the franchise, and we do not need the people who resort to such a style of play to degrade this MechWarrior as it has done the previous ones.

So then what's your problem with me. Explain to me how me playing that mode has deeply hurt you in particular. Explain to me how I'm degrading the Mechwarrior name by playing that mode alongside HOLA.

See, you can't do it; and all you're doing is being a bigot and spreading hatred and trying to segregate a community. Posts like the one you made are WORTHLESS to a community. You just promote intolerance.

It's one thing to say you don't like something; that's valid and you're entitled to it. It's another when you start to slander everyone based on something as loose as a game mode. It shows both a lack of intelligence and respect on your side. How's the saying go? "It is best to be thought a fool that to speak and remove all doubt", right?

Edited by Aegis Kleaisâ„¢, 03 April 2012 - 02:18 PM.

[GaussDragon]

Aegis Kleais™, on 03 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

See, this is why you cannot use sarcasm, tongue in cheek, etc. online. You can't inflect emotion in text. And because of that, people do/don't take you seriously when you intended otherwise.

Technoviking, on 03 April 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

So you went with "Because its Canon." Well done.

It's starting to dawn on me that maybe Technoviking was mocking the other side. If that's the case (I can't tell) then I'm sorry. It seems hyperbole to mock hyperbole can be hard to interpret sometimes lol.

[Aegis Kleais]

GaussDragon, on 03 April 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

It's starting to dawn on me that maybe Technoviking was mocking the other side. If that's the case (I can't tell) then I'm sorry. It seems hyperbole to mock hyperbole can be hard to interpret sometimes lol.

It's the Internet baby! It's all about (mis)communication!

[GaussDragon]

Brakkyn, on 03 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

Might as well swing and miss for strike three and allow people to turn on invincibility, as well. NHUA is a plague upon the franchise, and we do not need the people who resort to such a style of play to degrade this MechWarrior as it has done the previous ones.

Lol every time I see posts like this I picture a 5-year-old saying "I don't like fudge, therefore, NOBODY SHALL HAVE FUDGE".

[StaIker]

If a person comes into the MWO world because of the NHUA mode and that alone, then they are not really looking for a MechWarrior game, they are looking for some other sort of game. A game where unlimited firepower is cool and you can just blast everything in sight. I'd say that if that's what they are looking for they should actually go and find that game, not try to make this game into that other game. NHUA is as silly as flying Mechs or an aimbot option.

It was a mistake to ever include NHUA because now there is a perceived entitlement to "cheat mode" as a normal thing, that it's just part of MechWarrior and should always be there.

[Siilk]

GaussDragon, on 03 April 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm arguing that the changes/progression in the meta-universe are dictated EXCLUSIVELY by HOLA/no-respawn games. Any games like NHUA would offer limited XP and would have NO BEARING on planet capture and territory progression. I explicitly said that having concurrent meta-games would be messy, and that I'm against it.

Even if I leave out your comment about still earning XP(however limited), it would still be the same community, it would still be the same accounts, it would still be the same game assets, it would still be the same game. You threw out the rest of my post, where I pointed out that weapon and mech balance would have to be done twice: for NHUA and HOLA. Having both arcade and sim gameplay to be balanced against the same assets would be horrendous task to do and balancing only one of them would most likely lead to one of the game types being completely broken. Such things, while increasing the development efforts, would in no way help making MWO more appealing to anybody.

I also still want to know your opinion on having "NHUA mode" as a completely separate game. As you also ignored that part of my post, I assume you don't like the idea. Is that true? If so, why? You want NHUA specifically be a part of MWO? For what reason?

[Havoc2]

Siilk, on 03 April 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Even if I leave out your comment about still earning XP(however limited), it would still be the same community, it would still be the same accounts, it would still be the same game assets, it would still be the same game. You threw out the rest of my post, where I pointed out that weapon and mech balance would have to be done twice: for NHUA and HOLA. Having both arcade and sim gameplay to be balanced against the same assets would be horrendous task to do and balancing only one of them would most likely lead to one of the game types being completely broken. Such things, while increasing the development efforts, would in no way help making MWO more appealing to anybody.

I also still want to know your opinion on having "NHUA mode" as a completely separate game. As you also ignored that part of my post, I assume you don't like the idea. Is that true? If so, why? You want NHUA specifically be a part of MWO? For what reason?

Um. . . .

How does anyone think that in order to enable a NHUA mode, the entire game has to be redesigned, the 'Mechs re-balanced, the planets rebuilt etc etc. . . .?

Take the game MWO, copy it to a new universe (or don't allow any planetary conquests. The battles are instanced, have them all occur on Solaris or something) and turn heat/ammo off.

There is no need to create an entirely new meta-game, new Battlemechs, new weapons etc etc. It's a simple addition to the game to give those who want that game mode, that game mode.

Hell it gives those who want to mess around with that game mode sometimes just for fun that mode to do it in.

[GaussDragon]

Siilk, on 03 April 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Even if I leave out your comment about still earning XP(however limited), it would still be the same community, it would still be the same accounts, it would still be the same game assets, it would still be the same game.

Yes, but I don't see that as a problem.

Siilk, on 03 April 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

You threw out the rest of my post, where I pointed out that weapon and mech balance would have to be done twice: for NHUA and HOLA. Having both arcade and sim gameplay to be balanced against the same assets would be horrendous task to do and balancing only one of them would most likely lead to one of the game types being completely broken. Such things, while increasing the development efforts, would in no way help making MWO more appealing to anybody.

No you don't, you balance everything around the main game type, which is HOLA. NHUA are just boxes that you tick when you want to go experience a different flavour of fun, void of regard for balance issues that inherently come with it. No one is forcing you to play it, remember?

Siilk, on 03 April 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

I also still want to know your opinion on having "NHUA mode" as a completely separate game. As you also ignored that part of my post, I assume you don't like the idea. Is that true? If so, why? You want NHUA specifically be a part of MWO? For what reason?

I don't know how many times I've stated my reasoning for NHUA to not have 'parity of emphasis' in this thread. If by "separate game" you mean NHUA having it's own meta-game, then no, I'm against that, but I've already said that, several times. You'll find my answers to all your questions you just asked me in my previous posts.

}{avoc, on 04 April 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Um. . . .

How does anyone think that in order to enable a NHUA mode, the entire game has to be redesigned, the 'Mechs re-balanced, the planets rebuilt etc etc. . . .?

Take the game MWO, copy it to a new universe (or don't allow any planetary conquests. The battles are instanced, have them all occur on Solaris or something) and turn heat/ammo off.

There is no need to create an entirely new meta-game, new Battlemechs, new weapons etc etc. It's a simple addition to the game to give those who want that game mode, that game mode.

Hell it gives those who want to mess around with that game mode sometimes just for fun that mode to do it in.

Basically this^