16 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Battletech Experts required - What would happen if Catalyst game would decide to offer an optional ruleset for the game that would do the following:
1) Double all Armour
2) Double all Ammo
3) Gave the game 2 weapon attack phases (so basically every weapon can fire twice)

Everything else stayed the same (so you get, maybe most importantly, only one heat phase, despite your weapons potentially firing twice a turn).

How would you play your mechs? What kind of mechs do you think would benefit most under such a change? If you were allowed to bring custom designs, how would you design your mechs?

Imagine one further alteration: All heat penalties would be ignored until you go above 30 heat. with this shutdown be possible to ignore with a pilot roll vs 8., but even then only ammo explosions and internal damage would apply (no movement or to-hit penalties).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 07 October 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[RagingOyster]

Ballistics and missiles would suddenly dominate every game. Energy weapons would be totally useless since you would not be able to take advantage of firing twice unless you were very particular about designs.
With the last alteration, energy (PPC in particular) heavy mechs would be viable to core enemy mechs early as long as they did not have significant ballistics/missile ammo to die in an explosion.
Would make for fun, if quick, pick up games.

[Flash Yoghurt]

I see what you did there...

[MustrumRidcully]

Flash Yoghurt, on 07 October 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

I see what you did there...

Psssht.

[KalebFenoir]

I'd lose faith in the Catalyst version of the game, and I'd go back to using my beloved Master Rules Revised, and stay there.

I'd even give this 'optional rules set' you're talking about a moniker. "Newbs only."

Edited by KalebFenoir, 07 October 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

In case you're worried, Kaleb, I don't think Catalyst* has plans like this. Question is really more aimed at what you think the consequences of gameplay would be, not whether you'd like it.

* PGI on the other hand kinda implemented this already.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 October 2012 - 05:48 AM.

[KalebFenoir]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 October 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

In case you're worried, Kaleb, I don't think Catalyst* has plans like this. Question is really more aimed at what you think the consequences of gameplay would be, not whether you'd like it.

* PGI on the other hand kinda implemented this already.

I know. I know it was more of a rhetorical question... but if the tabletop headed that direction, I'd just ignore it.

Consequences to gameplay would be 'da game be broken'. LoL. Two weapon phases? increased heat capacity? No heat problems till after max heat is achieved? I laugh.

Working a double weapons phase into the table top would be like making all the mechs capable of time-warps. Suddenly they fire twice in the same 15 seconds (because beginning to end, a full round is about 10 to 15 seconds).

I love that heat problems one, though. Can you imagine if someone cranked their heat up to 120 without any heat problems in that first round, then the second round it all kicks in, and the mech melts into a pile of slag, as all its ammo cooks off, its pilot burns up in a cockpit that suddenly cranks up to several thousand degrees, and the core goes into meltdown? LOL

I suppose in MWO, something could be implimented to give beginners a chance, but should be rescinded later. Like, 10 rounds in or something. Nice big counter on the screen "YOU HAVE THIS MANY ROUNDS UNTIL NOOB-TECTION WEARS OFF!!" LoL. Let them have a taste of victory for a little while, before they learn the truth of playing the game.

[MustrumRidcully]

Well, I give you the Nova as ideal example. Producing 60 heat per turn and dissipating 36 is pretty nice. Producing 120 heat per turn and dissipating only 36 is, in fact, a Nova. Better hope you killed someone bigger than you with that.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 October 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[Warmonger2600]

Heat would be the major issue. If you look at the old Solaris rules they did something, sort of similar, but not really. The enacted a 4x multiplier to all combat rounds. They made hexes smaller and each BattleMech got to move/fire four times per round. They also put in a weapon delay that forced some weapons to wait up to 3 of the shorter combat rounds before they could fire again. The rules were a mess but they made machine-guns a very powerful weapon and PPCs almost useless.

Here are some of the charts from the book. The weapons chart "Dl" is the number of rounds you have to wait between shots. What they didn't do was triple armor.

[Warmonger2600]

Here are some of the Solaris Dueling BattleMechs. The stats are on the back but didn't photo well with all four in frame. Once thing I noticed was a large number of melee weapons, machine-guns, short range missiles, and pulse lasers.

[MustrumRidcully]

Yes, in the MW:O balance discussions the Solaris rules are often mentioned, because the also brought recycle times to Battletech.

But it seems pretty obvious to me that the FASA developers didn't know what they were doing, and this is reflected in play reports from Solaris players. The MG has a refire rate of 0, so instead of dealing 2 damage per 10 seconds, it deals 8. The Medium Laser has a refire rate of 1, so it deals 10 damage per 10 seconds instead of 5, while the PPC stays with a refire rate of 4 at 10 damage per turn.

And it seems that players do indeed report that weapon like the MG became much more popular...

[Karl Streiger]

The gap between Solaris and normal TT was serious.
Weapons that wasn't popular in TT now become great weapons a other good example the SRMs. Others were killed by heat.

However i tink to have some RoF effeceted weapons in normal TT wouldn't be the worst thing.
Best idea like in Heavy Gear...RoF may increase the damage or he chance for hit anyhing. (AC 5 with ROF may deal 8 dmg or earn a -1 to hit modifer...)

[Malis A Novacat]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 October 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Battletech Experts required - What would happen if :

Quote

1) Double all Armour

"All weapons do half damage"

Quote

2) Double all Ammo

"Your ammo bins now have twice as many exploding hit locations"

Quote

3) Gave the game 2 weapon attack phases (so basically every weapon can fire twice)

"Everyone ignores the Double Armor"

Quote

Everything else stayed the same (so you get, maybe most importantly, only one heat phase, despite your weapons potentially firing twice a turn).

"New players ignore Heat Effects, experienced players may vent once a week as needed."

Quote

How would you play your mechs? What kind of mechs do you think would benefit most under such a change? If you were allowed to bring custom designs, how would you design your mechs?

I'd still bring an energy Gunboat Alpha Striker. Like a Nova Prime.

Quote

Imagine one further alteration: All heat penalties would be ignored until you go above 30 heat. with this shutdown be possible to ignore with a pilot roll vs 8., but even then only ammo explosions and internal damage would apply (no movement or to-hit penalties).

Twelve ER medium lasers can shred an Atlas even if only half of them hit. Penetrate any torso, and set off all that ammo easy.

Would I alpha Strike the Atlas twice with all that heat? Yea, I really did that once with Standard Rules and made all my PSRs at 26 heat, the Nova was able and ready to shoot again, and the Atlas knew and didn't try to stand up after it fell down.

Solaris Arena battles are different, space is confined, without protection, LRMs would be hitting the audience iin the bleachers and grandstands instead of the intended targets in the arena. Short range weapons become desireable and things happen a lot faster.

GC

[MustrumRidcully]

I wonder if Open Beta brought us any new players with Battletech experience that would have an idea on this question...

[Asatruer]

Warmonger2600, on 09 October 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Here are some of the charts from the book. The weapons chart "Dl" is the number of rounds you have to wait between shots. What they didn't do was triple armor.

Thanks for posting those. I do not presume you know if any of the Solaris VII rules have been reprinted. I have heard that Technical Readout: 3055 Upgrade has the old Solaris VII mechs, but have not heard if it (or another modern book) has the dueling rules or not.

[KalebFenoir]

I learned that if you walk onto the field in a Yen-Lo-Wang, you now become the biggest target on your team, and your life expectancy is dramatically shortened.

Seriously, once, my entire team diverted to kill a YLW, because.... I don't know. Because it was a YLW. I ended up having to distract part of the rest of the enemy team until they returned to the fight. Didn't have much armour after that....

[wanderer]

Asatruer, on 02 November 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Thanks for posting those. I do not presume you know if any of the Solaris VII rules have been reprinted. I have heard that Technical Readout: 3055 Upgrade has the old Solaris VII mechs, but have not heard if it (or another modern book) has the dueling rules or not.

Nope. I consider my S7 rulebooks to be one of the rarer bits of lore I have around- and one of the better ones. Mechs did get reprinted a few times, however- even with updates.