128 replies to this topic

[Trevnor]

Rhinehart, on 21 March 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

I hate to cool the thunder but I have to say..

Urban Combat. The Right way to do it: Not at all.

According to the Ares Conventions fighting inside a city is against the widely accepted rules of warfare. Thus it shouldn't happen at all due to the excessive risk to civillian populations in city environments.

That being said anyone who is familiar with BT/MW Canon knows the rules often got thrown out the window. But since I style myself a Mechwarrior who believes in the Conventions as necesary rules to manage conflict within the Inner Sphere I would have to opt out of any battle that might likely result in excessive civillian casualties and that would most likely mean Urban Warfare. If opting out is not an option then I would have to base my tactics on a need to absolutely minimize possible civillian casualties and colateral damage. This would mean staying away from residential areas, schools, hospitals and other likely high population targets. I would carefully husband my fire to minimize incidental damage from misses. And at all times the objective would be to draw enemy mechs away from any areas where high civillian casualties could result from a battle.

There is no other way for me to approach Urban Combat and be true to the Mechwarrior Universe as I see my place in it. If that means a heavy disadvantage for myself and my allies, well so be it. To me, this might just be a game. But to my Avatar this is a fundamental principle of his character. If that means I never get to play on the Urban Map, oh well. But I would always, always, always seek an alternative location for a battle between fusion powered machines of destruction.

To willingly choose to fight in a populated city is the first step back to rampant barbarism.Many things I may be. A Barbarian is not one of them.

While that is a noble cause and all, the Ares convention was rescinded by the Star League in 2579, according to canon. Because of this, limiting your shots, to make sure you hit your target is a good alternative, but you'll have to fight in the streets. Because, which is better? You trying your best to defend the civilians you want to protect, or letting loose a hostile force whom has no regard for those same people, just because you don't want to fight in the city limits? Just something to think about.

Also, read Battletech 50: Flashpoint. Pay attention to the mechwarrior Amanda Black. She and you have a lot in common.

[MaddMaxx]

Garth Erlam, on 19 March 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure there aren't any Jenners, nor Hunchbacks, with an Awesome attached

Unless you're thinking of a game mode where you fight over an Awesome dressed like a princess. In which case a Flashman Lightbulb just appeared over my head!

EDIT: Also those worried that Assaults will rule the day have yet to see how ******* annoying Lights and Mediums can be with a tonne of cover.

What is this?

Garth got DFA'd by a Flashman? What Friday Test was that in, the AAR's did not report such wondrous events.

Perhaps Paul was driving the Lightulb and as such it seemed appropriate to keep it out of the Local Media (forum) spotlight? Good plan. lol

Edited by MaddMaxx, 22 March 2012 - 05:04 AM.

[BerserX]

Lt Trevnor, on 22 March 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

While that is a noble cause and all, the Ares convention was rescinded by the Star League in 2579, according to canon. Because of this, limiting your shots, to make sure you hit your target is a good alternative, but you'll have to fight in the streets. Because, which is better? You trying your best to defend the civilians you want to protect, or letting loose a hostile force whom has no regard for those same people, just because you don't want to fight in the city limits? Just something to think about.

Also, read Battletech 50: Flashpoint. Pay attention to the mechwarrior Amanda Black. She and you have a lot in common.

Yes, yes, yes! David McCarthy used a Stealth against Amanda Black's Bushwacker. Black had utter disregard for the civilians in the simulation, but McCarthy did his best to minimize casualties. In the end, Black had millions of c-bills-worth of damage and numerous dead civilians, while McCarthy had only half-a-million c-bills in damage and five dead civilians (one from a stray shot, and the others from getting knocked into them - if I remember right).

So, I guess the question, "Is there a right way to do it?" has been answered:

Yes, there is a right way to fight in a city. As mechwarriors of any house, or other affiliation, it is our duty to protect the innocent people that live in the city from unnecessary violence. We must do our part to defeat our enemies: by whatever means necessary, to minimize overall civilian death. In the end, if you have won the city, but killed the populace; have you really won anything worth winning? It should be the goal of every upstanding warrior out there to fight honorably; and to be accountable for every shot they fire, and even every light pole they destroy.

[Trevnor]

BerserX, on 22 March 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

Yes, yes, yes! David McCarthy used a Stealth against Amanda Black's Bushwacker. Black had utter disregard for the civilians in the simulation, but McCarthy did his best to minimize casualties. In the end, Black had millions of c-bills-worth of damage and numerous dead civilians, while McCarthy had only half-a-million c-bills in damage and five dead civilians (one from a stray shot, and the others from getting knocked into them - if I remember right).

So, I guess the question, "Is there a right way to do it?" has been answered:

Yes, there is a right way to fight in a city. As mechwarriors of any house, or other affiliation, it is our duty to protect the innocent people that live in the city from unnecessary violence. We must do our part to defeat our enemies: by whatever means necessary, to minimize overall civilian death. In the end, if you have won the city, but killed the populace; have you really won anything worth winning? It should be the goal of every upstanding warrior out there to fight honorably; and to be accountable for every shot they fire, and even every light pole they destroy.

Well, I was referring more to the second half of the book [SPOLIERS] when Amanda has realized what her actions do, and she faces down that destructive Falconer piloted by Xander. She then proceeds to run from the mech, rather than face him in stand up combat in the middle of the city. She succeeds in that much, but then something happens to her... Something that affects all her future performances.
[END SPOLIERS]

But either way, good call on my reference there BerserX

[Marrax]

I may have missed something somewhere in the post about this. If so im sorry for repeating. In my opinion the greatest form of urban combat for mechs is to get in close to strafe with heavy weapons (AC20 preferably), Flamers and if they ever implemented the concept of physical attacks.

That being said the implementation of physical attacks would allow for mechs such as the Hatchetman, Axeman and (eventually) the Berserker. Due to the close nature of urban combat short range weapons are most effective as the enemy has little room to maneuvor (unless they have jump jets).

[guardian wolf]

BerserX, on 22 March 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

Yes, yes, yes! David McCarthy used a Stealth against Amanda Black's Bushwacker. Black had utter disregard for the civilians in the simulation, but McCarthy did his best to minimize casualties. In the end, Black had millions of c-bills-worth of damage and numerous dead civilians, while McCarthy had only half-a-million c-bills in damage and five dead civilians (one from a stray shot, and the others from getting knocked into them - if I remember right).

So, I guess the question, "Is there a right way to do it?" has been answered:

Yes, there is a right way to fight in a city. As mechwarriors of any house, or other affiliation, it is our duty to protect the innocent people that live in the city from unnecessary violence. We must do our part to defeat our enemies: by whatever means necessary, to minimize overall civilian death. In the end, if you have won the city, but killed the populace; have you really won anything worth winning? It should be the goal of every upstanding warrior out there to fight honorably; and to be accountable for every shot they fire, and even every light pole they destroy.

Such is our solemn duty, one reason why the Clans do their best to bid away from cities. I will retain a similiar practice to this while in the Wolf's Dragoons, because what is it worth by taking a city, that hates you for all the destruction you cause, so at every possible chance they try to rebel *cough*FRR*cough*, half the battle is actually winning the hearts and minds of the local populace. We must strive to be shining examples of what we should be, not, the monstrosities we are fighting.

[Kylarus]

The right way to do In-Fighting in a city is to have a flier (either a drone like in the trailer or an actual plane/helo) overhead to get you some SA, or if possible, a Powered Armor or two keep an eye out for the enemy. Get a fast mech with a couple of PA on it, drop them off in places and lure a heavier mech into the zone. Never travel solo, always keep a lancemate on hand and out of the fire path. If buildings can be destroyed, perhaps shelling a building and hollowing it out, or just making it a wall with a big enough hole to fire through could work.

As much as I dislike the MechAssault games, the second one had some integration of firepower into it. Using infantry to supplement an ambush is dangerous for the men involved, but since they will be hard to spot on radar, they can do some heavy damage from explosive charges and MANPADS.

These things are of course in addition to the piloting and personal skills aforementioned by everyone else in the thread.

[Danko]

Xinaoen, on 21 March 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

An Assault 'Mech is really only practical in an environment where cover is readily available; as such, the city is almost certainly the best place for them.

Yes, Assaults are vulnerable to harassment by faster 'Mechs. Problem is, everybody knows that. In a "real competitive team environment," the heavy hitters are gonna have entire recon lances screening for them. If that Daishi doesn't see you coming a mile away, it's because a lot of people dropped the ball.

That should happen because light/medium 'Mechs are running passive (+ eventually ECM/JJ). Decently coordinated group of medium and light ones with energy/ballistic weaponry (Alpha Strike each 4/6 seconds) might really harass heavy and assault 'Mechs rear torso armor before taking cover.

[Rhinehart]

I own and have read Flashpoint and respect David Macarthy's convictions regarding Urban combat. However I base most of my convictions on the model of Grayson Carlyse of the Gray Death legion. He wanted to be an honorable mercenary and fight according to the Aries Conventions. These may have been rescinded by the Star League but you'll find a great many folk from common soldiers to leaders of the Inner Sphere (Thomas Marik for one, see the novel Ideal War.) firmly believed in them. However as so often happens many of these idealist get pushed into situations where they are manipulated, encouraged or even downright forced to fight in Abeyance of these principles. Usually as soon as somebody starts breaking the rules, bad and worse things follow and begin to really pile up. Grayson Carlyse himself ended up fighting in Urban areas more than once and innocent civillians being killed directly or indirectly as a result of his Merc units involvement always tore at him immensely. So while I imagine my Avatar striving with all his might to fight according to the Conventions I'm sure at some point circumstances will force him to violate them. I'm actually rather curious myself to see what I'll do when that happens Heh.

Edited by Rhinehart, 22 March 2012 - 03:43 PM.

[Togg Bott]

LordDeathStrike, on 19 March 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

the city was a joke in mw4, buildings were all 10 stories or less, and they were 100 yards apart with 8 lane highways for streets......

do it right, nyc scale, an atlas walking down a street should be scraping either sides buildings with its elbos.....



magnetic vision module = no need to guess, i see you at all times in town

LOL. Mag vision. turn it on and ALL you see is the steel structure of.... Buildings.

[Xinaoen]

Danko, on 22 March 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

That should happen because light/medium 'Mechs are running passive (+ eventually ECM/JJ). Decently coordinated group of medium and light ones with energy/ballistic weaponry (Alpha Strike each 4/6 seconds) might really harass heavy and assault 'Mechs rear torso armor before taking cover.

The idea, though, is that the Assaults won't be flying solo. Ideally, the heavy hitters should have scouts running point for them - probably those same Light and Medium recon 'Mechs, most likely outfitted with BAPs. Even if you win the ECM versus anti-ECM arms race, it'll be tough to sneak an entire Light lance up to an unsuspecting Assault without somebody spotting you the old-fashioned way: eyes on target. Not impossible, mind you, but difficult.

[GratuitousLurking]

While this may get some sneers from those saying to reduce collateral, I can't help forgetting that in the 2009 trailer, the Hellhammer pilot leveled the Jenner via dropping the building out from under them. While I agree we shouldn't do wanton destruction, such strategic demolitions- whether via ramming a building and tilting it onto another mech, or demoleshing a structure a light is potshotting atop of- may be a viable strategy for city fights... That is, if structures are full-destructable.

[Dominik]

Hmm... an interesting discussion indeed! My typical loadout is the slow-to-fire, heavy-hitter type. Especially if I can get my hands on a kettleborne or similar. Usually made with 4 PPC's in the chest slots, with ferro in the arms, three jump jets, and the rest high end heat sinks. (Oh and of course an AMS system for good measure)

My tactic is simple. step out with torso at 90 degreees, nail whoever is there with blue balls of death, then back up around the corner to let the building absorb the counterattack while my weapons cycle. With luck I'd score cockpit hits and end the fight quick. heh... Kill the meat- save the metal. A motto if ever there was one. *nods sagely*

[Eegxeta]

I found to win at city fighting you need to be making the best of the use of the buildings as cover, hiding or anything to give you tactical advantage. Also moving in a direction you aren't looking in and not running into things is important so being able to see buildings on your radar makes the difference between ducking into an alley and running into the corner of it (This got me killed in MW4 because you can't see buildings on the radar). Keeping your cross-hairs on the enemy while maneuvering in a tight space is hard enough by itself.

Actually I think it would be rather amusing if you were to run into a building fast that you would bounce off of it and possibly fall over. Every action has and equal and opposite reaction. Mech hits building, building hits mech.

Edited by Eegxeta, 22 March 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[Rhinehart]

GratuitousLurking, on 22 March 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

While this may get some sneers from those saying to reduce collateral, I can't help forgetting that in the 2009 trailer, the Hellhammer pilot leveled the Jenner via dropping the building out from under them. While I agree we shouldn't do wanton destruction, such strategic demolitions- whether via ramming a building and tilting it onto another mech, or demoleshing a structure a light is potshotting atop of- may be a viable strategy for city fights... That is, if structures are full-destructable.

If I remember the trailer right the structure in question was a parking garage. It could be argued that since the only times civillians would use this structure would be to get to and from their vehicles that this might be an acceptable low casualty target vs say an apartment building or corporate high rise as the chance of civillians being present is actually lower. Also I'm not sure if the Warhammer pilot deliberately collapsed the structure or if it was an unexpected event caused by him missing the Jenner he was confronting and hitting the structure inadvertently.

What it will boil down to is an individual pilot's choice. Since we are talking about a video game with no real consequences I imagine most pilots will go for a no holds barred shoot first and often stratagy. I like playing characters as well as games so my character intially at least will try to abide by the Conventions and avoid or minimize collateral damage and casualties. But after those first few battles, who knows? I might become even more concerned and careful. I might go the opposite route and de-sensitized by the violence reach a point where all war is Hell anyway and anybody dumb enough to be hanging around during a battle gets what they get. Why should I care?

Or it could reach the point where I'll drive a deliberately unarmed scout, able to scout for my side but not able to kill anyone directly unless I step on them. I don't yet know.

Germane to this thread however is the fact that the attitude of my Avatar as much as the terrain an enemy forces involved will dictate the tactics. A differing philosophy of warfare could lead to completely different tactics, both equally valid in the minds of two differing pilots. I Think that will be one of the most fun aspects of the game, adopting tactics to not only suit the forces and terrain involved in each fight, but the mentalitly of the Mechwarrior in the cockpit. Perhaps a little more in depth than some folks want to be bothered with but I expect to have some fun with it.

[Britbaldie]

With Urban combat, the only person that has an advantage is the one who gets the first shot in without being seen, size doesnt make much difference, its a pretty level field in the towns.

Lots of good advice, you should use your enviroment to the best effect, powered down mechs are good for ambushes, looking forward to doing some of those but you are also disadvantaged as if you are spotted, you need to power up, thats plenty of time for your opponents to hit you hard

You also need a good weapons layout for urban fighting, no point having a mech full of LRM's with that many buildings/cover about, its going to be a place for gauss rifles and AC2/5/10/20's, PPC's are fun in town, but you may get a little hot.
Your team mates will be your biggest advantage, a good selection of mechs and hopefully a good scout or two can give you the edge, you need to watch your flanks and rear as getting cornered will be the end of you

For those who have not played MW before, MW4 was available free I think, its great to learn urban combat in with your lance mates, a good joystick is a must, twist n turn, you need to keep your wit about you though and dont get seperated, keep together is the best thing so teamwork is a must.

[Charlic Wolf]

Gimpydrd, on 21 March 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

I have to agree with Peachy Davion. I too am the "support/big brother" role and i feel that its always best to have maximum SRMS i just feel insecure moving as fast as a speeding snail.

dont let em touch yo homebois bro

[IHateAtlas]

This guy.

Is a Barbarian.

[IronSardaukar]

Rhinehart, on 23 March 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

If I remember the trailer right the structure in question was a parking garage. It could be argued that since the only times civillians would use this structure would be to get to and from their vehicles that this might be an acceptable low casualty target vs say an apartment building or corporate high rise as the chance of civillians being present is actually lower. Also I'm not sure if the Warhammer pilot deliberately collapsed the structure or if it was an unexpected event caused by him missing the Jenner he was confronting and hitting the structure inadvertently.

What it will boil down to is an individual pilot's choice. Since we are talking about a video game with no real consequences I imagine most pilots will go for a no holds barred shoot first and often stratagy. I like playing characters as well as games so my character intially at least will try to abide by the Conventions and avoid or minimize collateral damage and casualties. But after those first few battles, who knows? I might become even more concerned and careful. I might go the opposite route and de-sensitized by the violence reach a point where all war is Hell anyway and anybody dumb enough to be hanging around during a battle gets what they get. Why should I care?

Or it could reach the point where I'll drive a deliberately unarmed scout, able to scout for my side but not able to kill anyone directly unless I step on them. I don't yet know.

Germane to this thread however is the fact that the attitude of my Avatar as much as the terrain an enemy forces involved will dictate the tactics. A differing philosophy of warfare could lead to completely different tactics, both equally valid in the minds of two differing pilots. I Think that will be one of the most fun aspects of the game, adopting tactics to not only suit the forces and terrain involved in each fight, but the mentalitly of the Mechwarrior in the cockpit. Perhaps a little more in depth than some folks want to be bothered with but I expect to have some fun with it.

Maybe there will be penalties for civilian casualties, and damage to properties and structure, it would seem that the roads may also need considerable repair from having mechs trundling along all over. If all these sorts of statistics are recorded it may go into consideration during the scoring process at the end of a match. Of course, you would think that the citizens would for the most part be evacuated to safety, regardless of what the opposing forces intentions are. I don't suppose that targeting a civilian population, namely a city, is high on the list of military operations. Though occupation of a city may gain significant strategic advantages, I'm sure that sophisticated civilizations from the future have ways of detecting and alerting the majority of the populace. I suppose it depends on what sort of scenarios will be available for the matches.

I myself cannot resist the urge to wage war within a city, not because I wish to do harm, (though I understand that I most likely will in some way) but for the experience. I dont know that I can rightly believe anyone when they say that running through an urban environment in a bi-pedal war machine, and possibly causing some mayhem, havoc, and destruction, is not in the least appealing whatsoever! Let alone fighting a battle.

[Jekrump]

BerserX, on 20 March 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

What version of MW4 did you play? I have MW4: Mercs, Vengeance, and Black Knight; but there are no Urbanmechs in them. Is that on the MekTek version?

where have you been? that game has upwards of 300 mechs now... mektek.net, get MTX, and download the game. there are still servers up and running too.