90 replies to this topic

[CCC Dober]

Hayashi, on 20 March 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

The funny thing is that when you're hit by a laser, due to the loss of mass, your 'Mech should pitch forward towards where the laser hit, but traditionally laser knockback was away from the hit location. Hmm.

Anyhow, PPCs are literally Particle Projection Cannons... so I suppose there'd be some effect to getting smacked by it. By lasers should have no movement, or just slight movement towards the hitsite, yup.

I already mentioned ablative armor before and the way it works. If you get hit frontally by anything strong enough to make you lose enough armor, then your Mech has suddenly more weight on the back than up front (center of gravity has shifted as a result). That's why it will visibly lean into the blows, as the gyro struggles to adjust to the new center of gravity in time (if possible).

Here's a more technical explanation on how BattleMech armor works:

Quote

Introduced in 2470 by the Terran Hegemony. In the BattleTech universe, armor is ablative in nature. This means that it is generally destroyed or blown off when hit, but in the process of doing so, it absorbs enormous energies, protecting the unit it is mounted on.

Source: http://www.sarna.net...hs_%26_Vehicles

Energy weapons don't cause direct, but indirect knockback due to blowing layers of armor away, which unsettles the gyro. The more armor they blow away, the more knockback they cause.
This should put the doubts to rest =)

Edited by CCC_Dober, 20 March 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[theaptpupil]

MaddMaxx, on 20 March 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

And as noted by the OP himself. When on the receiving end, you can actually hear the Sucking sound it makes. That Sucking sound is the actual FUN being sucked right out of the game.

nah, not for the old skool MW fans.

after all in the FAQ, they do mention they want this to be less arcade, and more sim like.

[Hayashi]

CCC_Dober, on 20 March 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

That's why it will visibly lean into the blows, as the gyro struggles to adjust to the new center of gravity in time (if possible).

This isn't knockback, this is knock-forward. The direction of motion is opposite from what you'd have if hit by an equivalent damage ballistic weapon. I don't have an issue with this type of motion, but I have an issue of it being termed knockback.

MaddMaxx, on 20 March 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

And as noted by the OP himself. When on the receiving end, you can actually hear the Sucking sound it makes. That Sucking sound is the actual FUN being sucked right out of the game.

1. I don't recall the OP talking about any sucking sound, so your first sentence...
2. Other players don't think allowing for PPC Boats to alpha while small 'mechs are basically cannon fodder is fun. Or contains any element of balance, contrary to what the devs seem to be trying to do with their role warfare stuff. Alphaing isn't impossible still, with knockback from AC/2s. It just makes it require more skill to execute... and allows for skill on the opponent's end to actually make some kind of difference. MW4 was already a heck of a lot more difficult than MW2 to alpha your opponents to hell; MW2 had no knockback whatsoever.

[Mellowbloom]

As I understand, damage from lasers is dealt over time, so wouldn't weight reduction from armour loss be over time too? It'd be slow enough for the mech to compensate, probably.

[MaddMaxx]

Hayashi, on 20 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

This isn't knockback, this is knock-forward. The direction of motion is opposite from what you'd have if hit by an equivalent damage ballistic weapon. I don't have an issue with this type of motion, but I have an issue of it being termed knockback.



1. I don't recall the OP talking about any sucking sound, so your first sentence...
2. Other players don't think allowing for PPC Boats to alpha while small 'mechs are basically cannon fodder is fun. Or contains any element of balance, contrary to what the devs seem to be trying to do with their role warfare stuff. Alphaing isn't impossible still, with knockback from AC/2s. It just makes it require more skill to execute... and allows for skill on the opponent's end to actually make some kind of difference. MW4 was already a heck of a lot more difficult than MW2 to alpha your opponents to hell; MW2 had no knockback whatsoever.

1)

Quote

"When I noticed how troublesome it was when used against me I decided to see if it might hamper the cpu generated opponents and sure enough it does."

Does that sound like he was having FUN? Really?

[Hayashi]

If he didn't like the idea, I doubt he'd suggest for it to be added into ANOTHER game to torment himself with, honestly... but this question you're asking is better answered by him than me. My C3 computer, while including logic modules, unfortunately doesn't come equipped with a telepathy module.

[Evil Ash]

Romeox, on 20 March 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

I do not undersatnd why Lazzors should knockback your enemy. Lasers are beams of light resulting to melt the enemys armor because of the heat they produce. There s no kinetic energy involved which could knockback the enemy mech.

Would you "knockback" when i ´d show you a lamp ?

Not knowing the EXACT composition of armor in the MW universe here's my guess
1: The lasers set off a mech's reactive armor, causing explosions
2: Ferro fibrous is mildy explosive (I have no idea)
3: Reflective armor causes kinetic disruptions because it's cool.

Edited by Evil Ash, 20 March 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Evil Ash, on 20 March 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Not knowing the EXACT composition of armor in the MW universe here's my guess
1: The lasers set off a mech's reactive armor, causing explosions
2: Ferro fibrous is mildy explosive (I have no idea)
3: Reflective armor causes kinetic disruptions because it's cool.

From Sarna.net:
"In the BattleTech universe, armor is ablative in nature. This means that it is generally destroyed or blown off when hit, but in the process of doing so, it absorbs enormous energies, protecting the unit it is mounted on. While powerful blows will still rock a vehicle, there will be little, if any, internal damage as long as armor plating still remains. Armor-piercing rounds do exist for certain weapons, but they require a higher technology level and cost more. As a result, destroying a 'Mech requires either immense firepower, concentrated fire on a vulnerable location, or a lucky hit."

Quote

Standard BattleMech armor is composed of several layers providing various degrees of protection and support. The first layer is extremely strong steel, the result of crystal alignment and radiation treatment, which is also very brittle. The second layer is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride, which combined with a web of artificial diamond fibers acts as a backstop to the steel layer. These two layers rest atop a titanium alloy honeycomb structure which provides support, and a layer of self-sealing polymer sealant which allows for space and underwater operations.

Quote

Ferro-Fibrous armor (FF) is a special type of armor used by vehicles and BattleMechs. Utilizing a weave of ferro-steel, ferro-titanium, and diamond weave fibers which boosts the tensile strength of the plating, it provides more protection per ton than standard armor (12% for Inner Sphere FF, 20% for Clan FF), but takes up more space on the 'Mech or vehicle (14 for inner sphere, 7 for clan). The maximum amount of protection is not changed; merely the weight of armor required to achieve that level of protection. For a unit which already has maximum armor protection, it is therefore considered a weight-saving measure, at the cost of critical space. The weight savings for Endo Steel are greater than those saved by ferro-fibrous armor, but it is more costly and obviously more difficult to repair or add as an upgrade to a 'Mech.

Quote

The Experimental Laser Reflective Armor was first created by the Lyran Alliance in 3058, and used in 3061 by Clan Jade Falcon. Also known as Glazed or Reflec armor, the first batch of Laser Reflective Armor was created by accident on a Ferro-Fibrous armor production line. Laser Reflective Armor dissipates energy weapon attacks 50% more efficiently than other armor types, reducing the amount of damage taken by the 'Mech mounting it. Despite the name, Laser Reflective Armor is effective against all energy weapons, not just lasers. PPCs, Flamers, Plasma Rifles, and Plasma Cannons are all less effective against it.

Though the armor functions like standard armor against ballistic weapon attacks it is very brittle. Whenever a 'Mech is physically attacked, falls, or crashes through a building, the armor is half as effective as standard or Ferro-Fibrous armor. This weakness has also been observed in artillery attacks. In addition Armor-Piercing autocannon ammunition, Tandem-Charge missiles, and BattleMech Tasers all have a better chance of penetrating the armor and causing critical damage.

Quote

Reactive Armor (sometimes called Blazer Armor) is an experimental armor that uses a series of microscopic explosions to reduce the effects of explosive weapons fire like missiles, artillery, and mortars. When these weapons hit a unit with Reactive Armor protecting the area, the damage is reduced by 50%. The microscopic explosives embedded in the armor redirect the force of the weapon away from the protected unit. This force redirect also reduces the armor-piercing effects of Tandem-Charge Missiles, Armor-Piercing autocannon ammunition, and BattleMech Taser spikes.

Though effective against missiles and artillery, the armor is no more effective than standard armor against other weapon types and physical damage. In addition there have been several cases where lucky weapon fire has initiated an armor explosion, stripping the Reactive Armor away from the protected location, leaving the unit extremely vulnerable.

Also, Reactive Armor isn't canonically developed until 3063.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 20 March 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Pht]

Hayashi, on 20 March 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

The funny thing is that when you're hit by a laser, due to the loss of mass, your 'Mech should pitch forward towards where the laser hit, but traditionally laser knockback was away from the hit location. Hmm.

It actually depends on where you lose the armor and what you were doing when you lost it. Could fall towards the lasers or away from them...

[CCC Dober]

Hayashi, on 20 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

This isn't knockback, this is knock-forward. The direction of motion is opposite from what you'd have if hit by an equivalent damage ballistic weapon. I don't have an issue with this type of motion, but I have an issue of it being termed knockback.

From my understanding the gyro is rather quick to respond, so that means the Mech would rock back first and then immediately lean forwards to avoid falling over. Suffice to say there is a limit and the gyro can't compensate everything. Then it'd become necessary to take a step or two back to avoid falling over. I guess that's where the pilot and the neurohelmet come in.

I read that stuff in novels where it was explained ad nauseum. So I take it you haven't been fortunate enough to enjoy most of them?

[Hayashi]

CCC_Dober, on 20 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

From my understanding the gyro is rather quick to respond, so that means the Mech would rock back first and then immediately lean forwards to avoid falling over. Suffice to say there is a limit and the gyro can't compensate everything. Then it'd become necessary to take a step or two back to avoid falling over. I guess that's where the pilot and the neurohelmet come in.

I read that stuff in novels where it was explained ad nauseum. So I take it you haven't been fortunate enough to enjoy most of them?

This is all about prior to gyro correction. If there is gyro correction the 'Mech would lean forward first and immediately lean back after to avoid falling over, if hit by a laser. Conversely, if hit by a projectile type, the 'Mech would be hit back first and immediately lean forward to avoid falling over.

This thread explains how and why that would happen, ad nauseum, not just by myself, but several other posters as well. So i take it you haven't been fortunate enough to read the preceding posts yet.

[Major Tom]

Strum Wealh, on 20 March 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

Math

Hayashi, on 20 March 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

Math

I like to see math in posts, unfortunately I don't always follow it.
Do these calculation take into account the 1250 Kg of armror that gets displaced on impact by an AC/20, that might actually make a AC/2 rock harder (the entire impact is absorbed)

Also for fun using the numbers above I calculated the knockback of a machine gun (weight an velocity based on modern .50 cal machine gun), a weapon just as effective as the AC/2 but much lower mass and speed.

Clip size 100, total shells per ton 20,000 (200 clips), 0.05 Kg per shell
Muzzel velocity ~900 m/s
KE = 0.5*m*(v^2) = 0.5 * .05 * (900^2) = 20,250 J = .02 Megajoules (MJ)
p = m*v = .05 * 900 = 45 Newton-seconds (N-s)

[mockingfox]

there is math in this thread, and I like where it is going!

[Hayashi]

Major Tom, on 20 March 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

I like to see math in posts, unfortunately I don't always follow it.
Do these calculation take into account the 1250 Kg of armror that gets displaced on impact by an AC/20, that might actually make a AC/20 rock harder (the entire impact is absorbed)

It assumes that the collision of the projectiles with the armour of 'Mechs is completely elastic. If we're talking situations in which the armour is blown off, as opposed to a simple collision scenario, then the momentum is absorbed by the flying armour, and thus the momentum's influence on the 'Mech is reduced. You could say that the calculations we did would show the maximum possible movement a weapon would cause in the absence of the shells exploding or any other such factor that can add in momentum beyond what it possessed prior to impact.

If the armour is blown off, it'll make an AC/20 rock the 'Mech less. But if the shell explodes on impact, it'll rock more. I'll defer to whoever is more experienced in BT lore at this point to detail whether or not AC shells are generally known to explode on impact.

45 Newton seconds wouldn't be enough to do much on an Atlas arm though. This would probably not affect aiming at all, making the Machine gun still useless unless you're using groups of them on a Flea.

[zwaps]

I love the efford you put in this but starting to argue about the realism of giant future fighting robots will lead to more questions than we can possibly answer.

Imo knockback needs to feel right and if there is a feasable scientific explanation then great but it still needs to feel right.

I'd be not opposed to the "knockforward" laser thing, though then I'd doubt the gyro would have much trouble with a couple of armor plates missing.

[Gremlich Johns]

CCC_Dober, on 20 March 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

P.S. Knockback received from impacting lasers, as far as I understood it, is related to the ablative armor concept, where damaged armor layers fall off and affect the Mech's center of gravity. It's not so much the laser that is causing knockback, but the way the armor works. If your 10m Mech is suddenly missing 0.5 tons worth of armor from a laser broadside on his front, you can be sure it's gonna unsettle the gyro and make the Mech stumble a bit.

Not so, theoretically the onboard stabilization systems would make the effect unnoticeable to you motion wise. Heat, now, that is a different story. Plus, Lasers have no noticeable Mass (not noticeable to a Human, anyway). Pulse lasers (a fiction atm) are wholly different, I imagine because of the amount of heat they would kick up after repeatedly hitting a spot/area on the mech (causing, I would think, a rapid expansion and contraction of air at the point of impact, imparting pseudo impact) But I am not sure, It sounded good to me at the time.

[ENDMYSUFFERING]

Hayashi, on 20 March 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

Anyhow, PPCs are literally Particle Projection Cannons... so I suppose there'd be some effect to getting smacked by it. By lasers should have no movement, or just slight movement towards the hitsite, yup.

And LBX-AC20s should blow the Flea clear on its back.

This. I love bothering Light 'mechs by knocking them down and proceeding to stomp on their faces with gauss rifles.
Also, about PPCs, Hayashi's point is correct, being a PARTICLE Projectile Cannon, and therefore firing solid particles, they would deal a decent bit of knockback, considering their velocity and size.

[Gremlich Johns]

Evil Ash, on 20 March 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Not knowing the EXACT composition of armor in the MW universe here's my guess
1: The lasers set off a mech's reactive armor, causing explosions
2: Ferro fibrous is mildy explosive (I have no idea)
3: Reflective armor causes kinetic disruptions because it's cool.

Incorrect on all three counts:

Ablative armor provides better protection against energy weapons than either FF or Reactive (imagine the heat shield on a re-entry vehicle like the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo spacecrafts)

Reactive armor protects against projectiles (like bullets, HEAT rounds, explosive missile warheads) Modern foreign Tanks utilize reactive armor cassettes for this effect.

FF is just okay against energy or ballistics. Chobham armor is a step up from FF I think.

[Gremlich Johns]

Flametrace, on 20 March 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Also, about PPCs, Hayashi's point is correct, being a PARTICLE Projectile Cannon, and therefore firing solid particles, they would deal a decent bit of knockback, considering their velocity and size.

Photons are discrete packets of light with no rest Mass, albiet Mass imperceptible to us and possess the wave-particle duality. (meaning they exhibit characteristics of both) and is what a PPC shot is composed of. However, being that PPCs shots are composed of a LOT of charged packets of photons, they are not solids in the sense that missiles or ballistic projectiles are, and behave like Lightning does (Lighting will put a hole in something, can even put a good sized divet in the ground). Sufficient concentration of Photons and the change that goes with them cause a bit of plasma to be produced along with the vacuum that is created when it travels through the air and strikes a surface (your mech, as it were) causing the boom sound and imparting any residual charge into your mech.

I have no real idea, but it sounded good at the time.....

[Hayashi]

PPCs fire protons, not photons. The photon guns... we call them lasers. Of the Large, Medium, Small and Bombast variety.

*Facepalm*