243 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"Couldn't this be accomplished by making modifications cost money? Money that has to be earned by playing/winning?"

A combination of "leave the Core in tact + (all costs are paid in C-Bills only)

Engine (only allowed to go bigger as it takes tons and crits),

Armor (again, add is OK, adds weight fro protection, max is chassis based already),

HS's, (again, add is OK, adds weight for added protection from heat issues, max allowed is crit # based already)

Weapons (Pods with strict guidelines in place. (cost would be for both the Removal of existing gear + the cost of the new equipment + cost of the actual replacement.

Modules and Electronics systems (cost)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 23 March 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[guardiandashi]

ok I am working from heavy metal pro but here is the BASIC (most common catapult)

Type/Model: Catapult CPLT-C1
Mass: 65 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 104 pts Standard 0 6.50
Engine: 260 Fusion 6 13.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4
Heat Sinks: 15 Single 5 5.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 HD, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA R: Sh+UA 12 .00
Armor Factor: 160 pts Standard 0 10.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 21 24
Center Torso (Rear): 11
L/R Side Torso: 15 19/19
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 8/8
L/R Arm: 10 13/13
L/R Leg: 15 18/18
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 LRM 15 RA 5 16 5 9.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT)
1 LRM 15 LA 5 3 7.00
2 Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
1 Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
1 Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
4 Standard Jump Jets: 4 4.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 LT, 2 RT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 22 48 65.00
Crits & Tons Left: 30 .00

that is the basic board game stats for a C1 catapult

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Catapult CPLT-C3
Mass: 65 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 104 pts Standard 0 6.50
Engine: 260 Fusion 6 13.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4
Heat Sinks: 15 Single 5 5.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 HD, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA R: Sh+UA 12 .00
Armor Factor: 160 pts Standard 0 10.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 21 24
Center Torso (Rear): 11
L/R Side Torso: 15 19/19
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 8/8
L/R Arm: 10 13/13
L/R Leg: 15 18/18
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Arrow IV System RA 10 5 16 16.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 RT)
2 Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
1 Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
1 Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
4 Standard Jump Jets: 4 4.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 LT, 2 RT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 22 56 65.00
Crits & Tons Left: 22 .00
is the basic stats for a 3050 C3 varient catapult

here I downgraded the engine (and jump jets)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Catapult CPLT-C3
Mass: 65 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 104 pts Standard 0 6.50
Engine: 195 Fusion 6 8.00
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 3
Heat Sinks: 15 Single 8 5.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 HD, 2 LL, 2 RL, 2 Undist)
Gyro: 4 2.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA R: Sh+UA 12 .00
Armor Factor: 160 pts Standard 0 10.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 21 24
Center Torso (Rear): 11
L/R Side Torso: 15 19/19
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 8/8
L/R Arm: 10 13/13
L/R Leg: 15 18/18
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Arrow IV System RA 10 5 16 16.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 RT)
2 Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
1 Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
1 Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
3 Standard Jump Jets: 3 3.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 1 LT, 2 RT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 22 58 57.50
Crits & Tons Left: 20 7.50

notice how the tonnage free changed? thats because it now has a smaller engine, smaller gyro, and only 3 jump jets instaid of 4

in the board game construction rules EVERYTHING is accounted for and has a mass (weight) and crit allocation even if some things are considered to not actually take up room like basic internal and armor

[guardiandashi]

I don't think there is an issue either upgrading or downgrading engines as long as the construction rules are followed (IE reducing the engine so that your catapult can only move 3/5/3 is in many ways its own punishment as now that atlas over there is just as fast as you are

[Sprouticus]

zorak ramone, on 23 March 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

[/i]

Couldn't this be accomplished by making modifications cost money? Money that has to be earned by playing/winning?

E.g., I get my starter mech (say, a hunchback). I like it and all, but I'd really like to modify it (say AC20->10, SL-ML, balance is heat sinks). Lets say that this modification takes money that has to be earned by playing well. So I have to take my Hunchback and win some games before I can modify it. Furthermore, if it turns out that my modification sucks, I have to go back and earn the money all over again to fix it or change it back.

You can balance this by making certain modifications cost more money (say ML->HS is cheap but AC20-GR is very expensive). The time factor wouldn't be necessary, as it requires time to play the game and earn the money. Only now, the time spent is just waiting. Its time spent playing the game.

A customization = costs system would require people to think about their modifications and prevent people from modifying like crazy.

Good to see you on MWO Zorak,

I agree with your assessments for the most part, and I agree that a hybrid crit slot model would be the best options. Frankly I think it should have been the model for MW4, but that is was waaay under the bridge.

Some key things to consider though:

1) The mechs released so far are 3025 mechs with level one tech gear in them.
2) For the open beta (or soft release as some people call it for FTP) they probably want to limit weapons and chassis to ensure balance
3) Because of that, you probably see limited level 2 equipment and weapons, especially electronics. At first that bothered me a lot, but then I realized that it would make balancing and good game play a LOT easier.
4) Most of the 'problem children' weapons are level 2, including LB-x and gauss rifles
5) As much as I love 360 degree TT in MW4 (and I know you did too in your Thannies), Im guessing that will not be a common balancing factor for mechs

Last comment, I agree that internals and engines should be VERY hard to change, and prefer them to not be alterable if at all. I also wrote in another thread about IS XL engines having crit slots in the R/L torso.. Maybe allow a jump of 1 engine size up or down?

Armor less so, but hard.


Short version though, is I agree that an open system which is transparent for all factors is really important.

Sprout

[zorak ramone]

Sprouticus, on 23 March 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

3) Because of that, you probably see limited level 2 equipment and weapons, especially electronics. At first that bothered me a lot, but then I realized that it would make balancing and good game play a LOT easier.
4) Most of the 'problem children' weapons are level 2, including LB-x and gauss rifles
5) As much as I love 360 degree TT in MW4 (and I know you did too in your Thannies), Im guessing that will not be a common balancing factor for mechs

Last comment, I agree that internals and engines should be VERY hard to change, and prefer them to not be alterable if at all. I also wrote in another thread about IS XL engines having crit slots in the R/L torso.. Maybe allow a jump of 1 engine size up or down?

Armor less so, but hard.


Short version though, is I agree that an open system which is transparent for all factors is really important.

Sprout

Good to see you too. This time around I'm just going to be a lone wolf/casual player. I'm a Dad now, and don't really have the time or inclination to go hardcore like in NBT-mercs.

As for the points on L2 tech, yeah I agree. In CBT, there were some huge problems with L2 tech, although this was mostly with the Clans. Clan energy weapons were just ridiculous and Gauss rifles were too good overall. If I were to change things, I'd make GRs do 10 damage (maybe 12 if being head-cappers is required), and dramatically reduce the ranges of all clan energy weapons except the ERPPC, which I'd downgrade to 10 damage and 10 heat.

Also agree on engines/armor. That said, if engines/armor were going to be fixed, some primary configs might need to be changed.

[Siilk]

zorak ramone, on 22 March 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Untill the MWLL devs release their construction rules, their pod system doesn't really impress me except as a technical demonstration of how you can change a mech's appearance based on loadout. The 4xLBX20 Fafnir and other impossible designs make doubt that they have a solid/balanced set of contruction rules, if they even have any at all. It just looks like "oh hey wouldn't it be cool if mech X could carry all these cool things?"

Quite the contrary. All the MWLL variants are built in compliance with stated rules on weight and pod space. There were some exceptions before 0.3.X but after that all the restrictions are fully implemented. As for MWLL Faf, and other "impossible designs", you simply may be confused by the difference in build rules between MWLL and battletech TT.

[Shai tan]

Ya know.... hehhhehhe everytime I look at the detailed lists peeps post, my eyes glaze over. It just looks so paper and pen. And I can`t fathom the interest in that stuff. But, I will fight to the death for your rights to be interested in the logistics. ;p

[Steel Talon]

Victor Morson, on 21 March 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

It sounds like they already have a Mechlab system in place, that uses Hardpoints. I'm looking forward to the next Dev Blog where they've said they'll cover it!

Seems logic, when u consider how CryEngine works
It needs pre-defined hardpoins on structure (or on modificable extension -- omnimechs) to add weapon models to it

[Pht]

Johannes Falkner, on 22 March 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I don't necessarily see how limiting it to variants and customization based on hardpoint variants will save things either. Some variants are inherently better than others. So you still end up with problems.

That some mechs are better than others is not a problem.

Dlardrageth, on 22 March 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

Still not sure having them turned into "pseudo-Omnis" with the hardpoint system and easy-ish swapouts is something I'd want.

"Psuedo" omnis? Either a mech fits the definition for omnimech or it doesn't. There is no magical middle ground...

Anyways ... I was merely offering it as a system to control the ultimate ends that a mechlab could go to. If the Devs do something like it but add other non-mechlab related balancing factors, like build costs, and maintnance factors, that's fine.

zorak ramone, on 22 March 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

I saw that, but I still think its not restrictive enough. Here are my ideas on Omnimechs.

Omnimechs, by definition are not restricted very much at all. The idea of ease of configuration into many formats is *exactly why they were built in the first place.*

They are *supposed to be gun-bags.* Limiting factors on omnimechs come from factors outside of the mechlab; the easiest of which would be to simply make them rare.

I would love to see them be what they are in the lore... scary as all get out... and expensive, and otherwise more complex to maintain.

monky, on 22 March 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

I would just like to say, throwing time in as a factor for refits is a terrible idea. When you get home and unlock/purchase your shiny new mech and maybe shiny new weapons for it, the LAST thing you are going to want is to have to wait for a refit to complete.

Amen.

Edited by Pht, 24 March 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[Red1769]

Seen this a few times, just not looked at it fully. But just by reading Pht's latest post...I can safely say that I agree with everything he said 100%.

Devs have said a hardpoint system will be used, though how this relates to the varients is speculation, so I don't think Pht will be far off if any. I think each varient of the same mech will have different hardpoints (makes sense with varients such as the Swayback and the PPC Catapult).

The first omnimechs were the Clans. And Clan stuff should be tough as heck to get, be it weapons, components, or mechs. Or extremely expensive for IS players to get...I'm not really adding anything, aren't I?

As long as the mechlab isn't too complex or even too simple, it's nice to have the hardpoint system back, as long as all omnimechs' hardpoints are omni...unlike in MW 4...it'll be okay....still not entirely sure how varients will work with omnis...oh well, that's still a long ways off.

Quote

I would just like to say, throwing time in as a factor for refits is a terrible idea. When you get home and unlock/purchase your shiny new mech and maybe shiny new weapons for it, the LAST thing you are going to want is to have to wait for a refit to complete.

Amen times 2.

[IHateAtlas]

I'm liking the re-fit realism. This is going to be awesome.

I'm not being sarcastic btw, I really am going to love it!

[Pht]

The cool thing about the hardpoint-crit combination is that you can still do a "buy a refit" system with it. All that would do is change the hardpoints you have to match the variant the refit changes to.

it's a decent way to give players "new" mechs of a particular chassis as they become available.

[William Petersen]

I really think the OP is on to something. Probably because I had a similar passing thought the other day, but didn't bother developing the idea as extensively as he did.

Nice work, sir, my hat is off to you.

I don't think anything even close to it will actually be implemented (more's the pity), but I think this is the best solution I've seen (or thought of) that melds the 'hard point' MW4 system with the MW2/3/TT rules, and melds it well.

[Dlardrageth]

I'm starting to think more and more that MWO might need or at least profit from a specific game mode that is customization-free.

The whole "hardpoint" shenanigans for me reek already too much of a MW4-like failed cheesefest again. I think I'll remain pessimistic for now, so PGI can always surprise me in a good way rather than the other way round. Or just give us a game mode where you can only use stock variants so we needn't bother with the whole MechLabbing (however it turns out) if we don't want to.

Pht, on 24 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

That some mechs are better than others is not a problem.

It will become one if the reward structure of the game will not be able to make sufficiently up for it. Unless you don't see it as a problem if 90%+ of the players will only pilot the same four or five Mech chassis...

Quote

"Psuedo" omnis? Either a mech fits the definition for omnimech or it doesn't. There is no magical middle ground...

Yeah, and everything is always just black or white as well? Oh, and considering that there is no "hardpoint system" in BT, that makes any game using one according to your logics a random Mecha game that has nothing to do with BT, right?

Why do you think I chose the prefix "pseudo" there (which you misspelled, BTW)? Because it fits the purpose - a hardpoint systems effectively doesn't give the chassis full Omni capabilities, it just emulates part of those by allowing (limited) swapout, thus it's more of a pretense of omni capability. There you got the "pseudo" part. But feel free to find a dictionary that trumps the Cambridge one, if "pseudo" means something totally different for you...

[docmorningstar]

Jonas, on 23 March 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

...On another note I do have an idea switch out hard points. Ie: some small A/C and lasers ports look the same same for some of the big ones the issue really comes in to play with Lrms and srms, I hated seeing lasers come out of a missile rack or a missile come out of a laser/ac. Or when I ran my Madcat but didnt have the missiles on it but still had the racks on it. What if you just remove the hard point and replace it with a hard point that fits the weapon style you want. ...

I think this is the one and only reason that hardpoints are a valid mechlab choice: they make it easier to make the mechs look nice, graphically.

And as nice as that is, I kind of hate it, since it limits things rather artificially.

Shrug, it's a legit choice

[Orzorn]

The clear answer, to me, is to have all variants have different hardpoints, which are represented, like Pht had them, as colored critical slots. The way to overcome unmakable canon variants is to have each canon variant in-game have different critical hardpoints. For example, the normal Dragon has a ballistics hardpoint, two medium sized energy hardpoints, and a medium sized missile hardpoint, but the DRG-1G would change the ballistics hardpoint for a large energy hardpoint, and add an additional medium energy hardpoint.

So you could still make your own variants, but you'd have to work around the current hardpoints on your variant. If you want different hardpoints, you could purchase a different variant first.

For me, that is enough. I don't think anything else would really have to be changed, except for perhaps what the OP mentioned about being able to move the skeleton around and whatnot. That has always been a little odd.

[guardiandashi]

I think you guys are misunderstanding how where I was going with the time factors on refits.

example you buy a -C1 catapult, it arrives in your mech bay and is instantly usable as the stock C1 version

if I buy the standard C3 (arrow IV with 5 shots) catapult it also would be instantly usable

if I MODIFY the C3 (arrow iv) catapult to have 10 DHS and additional ammo because it is no longer a STANDARD configuration I have to spend "down time" to have it converted into the new version, if I don't want to wait the 40 min or 40 hrs (whatever the time penalty) for the mod is. then that is something that IMO would be reasonable to have to pay "real money tokens" to speed up

I am not saying that if I buy a mech off the "market" that I should have to wait before I can use it (although in universe it would not be unreasonable) I am saying that having a "cooldown" for refits before the mech is usable is not an unreasonable mechanic.

[MaddMaxx]

Orzorn, on 25 March 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

The clear answer, to me, is to have all variants have different hardpoints, which are represented, like Pht had them, as colored critical slots. The way to overcome unmakable canon variants is to have each canon variant in-game have different critical hardpoints. For example, the normal Dragon has a ballistics hardpoint, two medium sized energy hardpoints, and a medium sized missile hardpoint, but the DRG-1G would change the ballistics hardpoint for a large energy hardpoint, and add an additional medium energy hardpoint.

So you could still make your own variants, but you'd have to work around the current hardpoints on your variant. If you want different hardpoints, you could purchase a different variant first.

For me, that is enough. I don't think anything else would really have to be changed, except for perhaps what the OP mentioned about being able to move the skeleton around and whatnot. That has always been a little odd.

If I can only make a known Variant in the Lab, even if I buy a Variant to change, why not just let the Dev provide us those Variants to BUY?

[Steel Talon]

guardiandashi, on 25 March 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

I think you guys are misunderstanding how where I was going with the time factors on refits.

example you buy a -C1 catapult, it arrives in your mech bay and is instantly usable as the stock C1 version

if I buy the standard C3 (arrow IV with 5 shots) catapult it also would be instantly usable

if I MODIFY the C3 (arrow iv) catapult to have 10 DHS and additional ammo because it is no longer a STANDARD configuration I have to spend "down time" to have it converted into the new version, if I don't want to wait the 40 min or 40 hrs (whatever the time penalty) for the mod is. then that is something that IMO would be reasonable to have to pay "real money tokens" to speed up

I am not saying that if I buy a mech off the "market" that I should have to wait before I can use it (although in universe it would not be unreasonable) I am saying that having a "cooldown" for refits before the mech is usable is not an unreasonable mechanic.

By cooldown, u mean time to "build" custom mech once, or always after being destroyed, cause it will make game more camp style as ppl dont want to wait 40mins between battles
With one-time build CD it seems resonable & not gamebreaking

[guardiandashi]

from what I understood one of the devs said they were not planning to impliment by the game rules repair times
the reason is this is at least initially not going to have anything to do except battles much like WoT

in the WoT example essentially the only things to do are:
look at stuff in your garage, buy ammo, and spend xp "upgrading" your tanks
and
fight in battles

since MWO is going to basically have:
fight in battles
determine which battles you want to fight in
spend xp on your chassis
spend xp on your mechwarrior
and
some form of customization of your mechs

they can't really have "realistic" repair times as there isn't any "virtual bars, virtual stores, or any of the "virtual" world for your charactor to interact in.

with that in mind I personally would not have issues with a "one time customization" wait time for each customization of your mech putting that single mech into a "REFIT cooldown" where it is unusable, if you choose to refit your entire "stable" of mechs at the same time IMHO its your problem.

since they mentioned no effective "REPAIR" cooldowns then I believe that would apply even with "customized mechs"

and just as an example spending the time on the C3 catapult (for example) to refit it from packing 15 SHS to 10DHS (increasing its heat dissipation rate by 25%) and then increasing the ammo bins from 1 total ton of Arrow IV missiles (5) to say 5 tons of arrow IV ammo (25 shots) and then spend the 1 remaining ton on either a TAG unit, or possibly adding some additional armor would IMO be well worth not being able to run the mech for even a few days after starting the refit.. I would just have to stick with using other mechs in my stable or caugh up a few $ to "speed up" the refit time. if its only going to be a few min or hours, just do it before you log.