58 replies to this topic

[StaIker]

If the MW4 leagues are any indication it's not the players you have to worry about anyway, it's the commanders. A bad commander can do a whole lot more damage to his team than any ace opponent can.

Edited by StaIker, 22 March 2012 - 03:08 AM.

[liquidzer0]

its really simple to balance out a game like that. just put total tonnage limits on lance teams. thats how they did it in the old mw4 leagues. gave u 5 lance mates but only 350 tons to balance out. that stopped teams from doing all 100 tonners against all 60-70 tonners. it created a balance and allowed ppl who liked playing scouts to have the ability to play scouts to allow for a coulple 100 tonners.

Edited by liquidzer0, 22 March 2012 - 03:31 AM.

[Adridos]

liquidzer0, on 22 March 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

its really simple to balance out a game like that. just put total tonnage limits on lance teams. thats how they did it in the old mw4 leagues. gave u 5 lance mates but only 350 tons to balance out. that stopped teams from doing all 100 tonners against all 60-70 tonners. it created a balance and allowed ppl who liked playing scouts to have the ability to play scouts to allow for a coulple 100 tonners.

You missed the point.

It is about a match of whole Atlas teams, but one team has good players, while the second are newbies issue.

[SirDenOfYork]

Practice makes Perfect in most cases... enough said...

[Felbombling]

The game is what it is... a game. I'm older than many folks on the boards and I can relate to the OP. When I played Call of Duty I was shocked to learn that people hacked the game or did simple things like crank monitor settings to get rid of shadows, etc. So while I'm creeping around trying to be sneaky, they're entering rooms and can see me plain as day. Totally disappointed to find that out. When I played WoW I got a rude awakening to PvP play the first few times. It is one thing to play vs. the game mobs and another to fight against human intellect and reflexes. I adapted, read up on things, watched a video or two on YouTube telling me 'how to'. There are numerous things you can do to get better. Mine was to imagine every opponent I was fighting in a WoW battleground was one of two people...

A: A bratty little kid hopped up on Hot Pockets.
B: A 48-year-old sitting in his parents basement. A 2L bottle of Coke to his left and a Super Size bag of Ruffles to his right.

It made dying easier to take and kills much more enjoyable.

Things will balance out as time goes on. Teams of elite players will not want to fight against groups of pick up players, as the challenge level will not be there. The dev team probably has something up their sleeves for this very situation. If not, adapt and overcome. See about joining a group, Merc Company or House and getting some pointers from those players. Watch videos... spectate if it is an option. From what I've seen of the community, there are a ton of really helpful, well-meaning people here. I imagine that will carry over when the game starts out.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I agree with StaggerCheck wholeheartedly. The other thing to remember is that not every one is capable of being elite pilots. Know and accept your limitations. Work out your strengths and weaknesses and try to adapt to them. Hopefully the game matching will try and sort out player levels, but this won't happen at launch because it won't have any stats to work on. Prepare to die often as you are mismatched but accept it for what it is - don't just cry that the games broken. Existing teams will have a big advantage, if you play on your own from preference, learn how to be a team player 'cos it will help you to survive. Keep practicing and above all - enjoy the game. Hopefully this won't be a game where K/D is everything and will accomodate all types of playstyles and skill levels.

[Hayashi]

Egomane, on 22 March 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

The good player does not fear another good player, he will fear the new and bad ones, because he can't predict what they will do.

No weapons-fire is as accurate as friendly fire.

[MaddMaxx]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 22 March 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

I agree with StaggerCheck wholeheartedly. The other thing to remember is that not every one is capable of being elite pilots. Know and accept your limitations. Work out your strengths and weaknesses and try to adapt to them. Hopefully the game matching will try and sort out player levels, but this won't happen at launch because it won't have any stats to work on. Prepare to die often as you are mismatched but accept it for what it is - don't just cry that the games broken. Existing teams will have a big advantage, if you play on your own from preference, learn how to be a team player 'cos it will help you to survive. Keep practicing and above all - enjoy the game. Hopefully this won't be a game where K/D is everything and will accommodate all types of play styles and skill levels.

I will agree with Nik's agreement with Stagger. MWO will be a Team oriented gameplay environment. Joining even a random Team and then running around Willy Nilly expecting to get anything accomplished will surely end with ones demise at the hands of the other "Team".

Death should not be seen as a Failure. It should be seen as one of many lessons to be learned as one strives to become a better Pilot. Just like being "Tough", reset assured, there is ALWAYS someone "Tougher" out there. Finding those opponents (or Teams) and then holding your own (as a team) is when things becomes the most FUN, win or Lose.

[Gabriel Amarell]

I would imagine that the game will have some kind of ranking system, and that players would be matched on certain criteria including that ranking. IE from the pool of potential players the game selects 2 teams of lets say 4 mechs, each team totaling a certain weight (or battle value) and a certain skill ranking. This is pure speculation, but a ranking system would seem almost a necessity so that players who are really good at the game will have challenging opponents and players who arent wont be woefully outmatched every time they fire up the game. I have played competative multiplayer and without a ranking system the not so good players end up getting pasted over and over, getting frustrated and losing interest. If the developers expect the game to appeal to anyone other than the dedicated hardcore fans they will have a cumulative ranking system so that players are matched on skill atleast to the degree that a computer can statistically determine skill a players skill level.

[Bloody Moon]

In my opinion the best way to follow in MWO regarding the case of matchmaking balance would be something like this:

1. Implement a limit so the relative skill level between the best and and the worst players can't be more than a certain number.

2. Balance the teams via tonnage and relative mech strength so no one in a battle would feel like the other team has hardware advantage.

3. After the first two criteria is fulfilled swap the players around depending on player skill while keeping the tonnages balanced so the best possible balance is achieved.

Anyway the main problem with a lacking matchmaker is the fact that when most people lose they tend to bash someone else instead of asking themself "what could i've done better?". With an obviously working matchmaker that balances the players well the majority of the blame for the loss will be recieved by the "suiciders" or the people who didn't perform as they should. If the matchmaker lacks in terms of proper balance the crowd will find an easier target instead of blaming eachother, they will blame the devs and the failed matchmaker balance for the loss. This is what i observed so far while playing similar ie team-oriented online games. So all in all i hope the devs realize this aswell when they implement a matchmaker.

ps.: i guess Gab was faster than me

[CeeKay Boques]

If the game does not seperate the skilled from the unskilled, there is no skill to be had.

Having been on both ends of the spectrum and back again...

I really hope the Dev's devise a way to let teams challenge each other for fun and points. There will be rivalaries. An all matchmaker set up is cool if we don't know eachother.

But eventually we will.

Mechwarrior has the potential to form strong bonds of brotherhood. These bonds will create superior, hivemind like teams. If the game is player skill based, they will crush. Win/loss ratio for teams may need to be a MM factor. But again, more importantly, teams that are 20 and 5 need to be able to fight the other 20 and 5 team because they want to. It will drive them. The top team in Russia will want to play the top team in Germany. I'm really curious about the game set up system.

[Dlardrageth]

SmartAlec, on 22 March 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

[...]
I can just picture myself ambling along, when all of a sudden someone jumps over a building, hits me in the head while in the air, then lands on my face...no way I'm ever going to be able to do that. What are people thoughts about different ways to balance the casual players and the hardcore nuts? Pro? Con? Speculations?

Especially with the "hit you in the head while in the air part" I don't think that will be happening. There was a lot of discussion already going on how far you can reliably hit something while in flight, if at all. If this example you made above becomes frequent reality, lots of people will leave. Easy as that. And those "18-hour/day" no-lifers will face the reality of servers closing down because the player-/customer base shrunk down too much to warrant keeping servers up.

Apart from the obvious issue that hitting something with pinpoint precision while on a somewhat unstable trajectory through the air is ridiculously unrealistic, no matter what any poptard will claim differently.

[fearfactory]

Define steamrolling. Personally, I think MechWarrior 4 Mercs multiplayer today is a great example of how bad a Mechlab is and how top heavy a game can be. If you're not in an Assault Mech, or boating, you're basically dead from the start. Mix that with a cheese competitive attitude, n00b taunting, and you realize that you're playing a mechanized version of CoD or Halo. Such a horrible game even with all the mods (Which IMO made it worse, what's the point of having a huge 'Mech selection if no one is going to use anything but a Stone Rhino so they can OHK eveyone?).

MechWarrior Online sounds like it could work well if it does stick with BattleTech rules. They're even sticking to basic technology (Introductory) which is pretty well balanced on its own. Things like Class A and Class B refits really won't unbalance anything. Works this way on the board too.

[Benaresh]

Egomane, on 22 March 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

The good player does not fear another good player, he will fear the new and bad ones, because he can't predict what they will do.

QFT!
To elaborate the argument from Smurf-O-Pax big thing in CS 1.6 Lucky newbies mp5 full auto while running headshotting ESK Sweden pros. even heard that one of the legendary NIP Clan got killed 5 rounds in a Row simply because a noob used the g3 and luckshotted the everloving sh*t outta him...

[Benaresh]

Dlardrageth, on 22 March 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Especially with the "hit you in the head while in the air part" I don't think that will be happening. There was a lot of discussion already going on how far you can reliably hit something while in flight, if at all. If this example you made above becomes frequent reality, lots of people will leave. Easy as that. And those "18-hour/day" no-lifers will face the reality of servers closing down because the player-/customer base shrunk down too much to warrant keeping servers up.

Apart from the obvious issue that hitting something with pinpoint precision while on a somewhat unstable trajectory through the air is ridiculously unrealistic, no matter what any poptard will claim differently.

well i hope it doesnt come to Cheesefest 2012!
Anyway do you play basketball? I think its the same with poptarting you need to time the momemt of stillness in your hop and bang got a shot as you were standing still... just a tought on that matter.

Hayashi, on 22 March 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

No weapons-fire is as accurate as friendly fire.

Edited by Benaresh, 22 March 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[00dlez]

In a 12 v 12 game, where things are done randomly, there's no need for a balance mechanism... You are just as likely to roll as to be rolled and more often then not, teams will just end up being pretty fair.

[Dlardrageth]

Benaresh, on 22 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

QFT!
To elaborate the argument from Smurf-O-Pax big thing in CS 1.6 Lucky newbies mp5 full auto while running headshotting ESK Sweden pros. even heard that one of the legendary NIP Clan got killed 5 rounds in a Row simply because a noob used the g3 and luckshotted the everloving sh*t outta him...

Main difference being here that MWO is NOT supposed to be "yet another FPS" like CS or something. According to dev statements. And in a Sim worth its money you usually don't do balancing by introducing that large a "luck factor". Add to that a greater role/need for sound tactics on bigger maps where you cannot just "twitch-jump" from one corner to another... I don't think the CS comparison is that useful. After all, we're not talking about some random console FPS here.

Benaresh, on 22 March 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

well i hope it doesnt come to Cheesefest 2012!
Anyway do you play basketball? I think its the same with poptarting you need to time the momemt of stillness in your hop and bang got a shot as you were standing still... just a tought on that matter.

For that comparison to work you might have to pick BA though. Not Mechs. Very few basketball players weigh 20+ tons last time I checked. And they also don't usually have to cope with flying 25+ meters high, in potentially adverse and changing weather conditions like, say, wind, rain, etc. etc. While being fired upon. I'm not saying it would be totally undoable, Just give it like a 0.05% chance. For the sake of realism.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 22 March 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[Tremor]

I agree that attempting to balance skill is a bad idea. I also agree that getting stomped on is a great way to learn to get better, and practice makes perfect.

My only concern is that a noob won't learn to get any better being crushed within the first 3 minutes of a 20 minute engagement. He'd likely just get frustrated and quit.

[Dlardrageth]

Tremor, on 22 March 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

[...]My only concern is that a noob won't learn to get any better being crushed within the first 3 minutes of a 20 minute engagement. He'd likely just get frustrated and quit.

Not only a newb IMO. Why would your "average" customer with (eventually) a job, family, real life obligations, etc. bother to play a game where silly stunts like getting headshot across the map or similar stuff could happen? From the no-lifers who play 23/7? If you don't care for all these "1337 twitch skills" as the main defining moment of gameplay, you watch it once, twice, maybe even ten times. Heck, I might even stay for close to a whole month. Then I shrug and turn elsewhere. If I want that kind of game I needn't bother with MWO, tbh.

So yeah, go ahead, make the gameplay all "skill"-based (kind of wrong label, "skill" encompasses way more than twitchy reflexes et al.) and watch the player/customer numbers plummet in a short time. So you can enjoy your "elite" gaming community of maybe 2500 regulars for the short while before the servers get closed down. Due to being unprofitable. As this won't work out for a F2P game. Economically. Quite easy way to shoot yourself in the foot for PGI.

[Major Tom]

Matchmaking is key to keep the game challenging and enjoyable for both casual players and ubernerds elite players.
I always appreciated StarCraft II's matchmaking system, and how they were able to bracket players can keep everyone engaged. Casual players are able to have an enjoyable and competative match against players of their own skill level, while the "Pro's" are challenged and gain recognition for their skills via a pilot rating/ranking system.

It actually sounds like the foundation of this system has already been implemented. Wherein certain missions and contracts are only available at a certain "loyalty" rating, and you gain loyalty rating through mission success. Although how/if this will affect lone wolf players is a little sketchy.

Edited by Major Tom, 22 March 2012 - 11:34 AM.