My take is that pickup matches could use some kind of balancing , especially for the new guys, but not when one competes in the "story" mode where it is team on team for planets or other strategic considerations. Such a system would let the new folks get used to the systems nad feel of the game. But there should never be any need for balancing skill, tactics and teamwork just so some one can just "jump in" against those who are willing to plan and work for success. A group fo new people should never expect to compete on the same level as those who have worked at developing their skills and team work.
The game appears to be headed toward a system where teams can bid on contracts or assignments. If this is the case, newbies can go for the contracts/assignments that are of lesser intensity and build their skills and teamwork. That is the way the REAL world works. For some of us, the deveopment of skills and tactics is a major driving forceand source of fun in playing a game such as this. We should not have to give this up.
Remeber that everyone is going to be new to THIS game when it hits Beta/release. We are all on the same level. If one needs an artificially leveled field for that, something is very wrong!
4
Balance, or how to keep steamrollin' to a minimum...
Started by SmartAlec, Mar 22 2012 12:47 AM
58 replies to this topic
#42
Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:03 PM
Dlardrageth, on 22 March 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:
Main difference being here that MWO is NOT supposed to be "yet another FPS" like CS or something. According to dev statements. And in a Sim worth its money you usually don't do balancing by introducing that large a "luck factor". Add to that a greater role/need for sound tactics on bigger maps where you cannot just "twitch-jump" from one corner to another... I don't think the CS comparison is that useful. After all, we're not talking about some random console FPS here.
For that comparison to work you might have to pick BA though. Not Mechs. Very few basketball players weigh 20+ tons last time I checked.
And they also don't usually have to cope with flying 25+ meters high, in potentially adverse and changing weather conditions like, say, wind, rain, etc. etc. While being fired upon. I'm not saying it would be totally undoable, Just give it like a 0.05% chance. For the sake of realism. 
Never rule out Luck NEVER!
but on the 20 ton mate jumping 25 meter high? point totally taken
#43
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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:11 PM
IF the game doesn't reward skill and practice, than what's the point.
Even the good players won't be able to avoid all shots however, so it's not like there will be invulnerable players, just more successful ones. If you get smashed silly by a good player, get back up and play another game, eventually you'll get better.
Even the good players won't be able to avoid all shots however, so it's not like there will be invulnerable players, just more successful ones. If you get smashed silly by a good player, get back up and play another game, eventually you'll get better.
#44
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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:13 PM
Seabear, on 22 March 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:
Remeber that everyone is going to be new to THIS game when it hits Beta/release. We are all on the same level. If one needs an artificially leveled field for that, something is very wrong!
In a month we'll see differences in player skills, in a half year or less we'll see a definitive competitive scene. Maybe at the start we won't need much balance in the matchmaking aside from tonnage but later on maybe it is not the best idea to have players who can solo half the enemy team vs total newbies.
Sneaky ps.: Soloing half of the team doesn't require a top mech (while it is good to be in the top 4 for example) there are players out there who will be able to do it with an 50-60t mech just as easily.
Edited by Bloody Moon, 22 March 2012 - 01:05 PM.
#45
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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:19 PM
The game will be balanced between casual and hardcore gamers as long as PGI doesn't implement some type of mission-reward system like WoW, Rift, SWTOR etc where the person who plays the most gets the best gear.
We all have access to the same 'Mechs (whether we choose to buy them or grind them), the only difference being some will have more skill points/mods/whatnot from playing longer.
Not like casual gamers will only be able to play lights and mediums and hardcore guys are all in Atlases.
We all have access to the same 'Mechs (whether we choose to buy them or grind them), the only difference being some will have more skill points/mods/whatnot from playing longer.
Not like casual gamers will only be able to play lights and mediums and hardcore guys are all in Atlases.
#46
Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:23 PM
verybad, on 22 March 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:
IF the game doesn't reward skill and practice, than what's the point.
Even the good players won't be able to avoid all shots however, so it's not like there will be invulnerable players, just more successful ones. If you get smashed silly by a good player, get back up and play another game, eventually you'll get better.
Even the good players won't be able to avoid all shots however, so it's not like there will be invulnerable players, just more successful ones. If you get smashed silly by a good player, get back up and play another game, eventually you'll get better.
the Game doesnt need to reward Skill and Practise ! Skill and Practise are their own reward...
Still Love your attitude towards defeat. Very Sportsmanlike
#47
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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:48 PM
verybad, on 22 March 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:
IF the game doesn't reward skill and practice, than what's the point.
I don't recall anyone advocating that skill&practice have no influence whatsoever in the game. It's more about finding a proper balance how much they should.
#48
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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:50 PM
1. The skill level of players will vary greatly, there will be adepts and those who are far less adept. The reason behind the discrepancy is immaterial.
2. The mechs in a match must be balanced, 4 assault mechs cannot be matched up against 4 light mechs. BV (battle value) or tonnage seem the most obvious way to accomplish this, but ultimately the means of balancing the mechs is immaterial so long as they are balanced.
3. No one at Piranha is going to monitor the matches and balance them, it will have to be done mathematically based on mech statistics.
4. Balancing the mechs in a match isn’t enough, players must be balanced according to their relative skill, and like mech balancing this will have to be done mathematically based on based on statistically traceable actions taken in the matches they have played. (I would suggest tracking the damage a player inflicts in a match relative to his/her BV or mech weight but the method is immaterial as long as the players are balanced.)
5. If no effort is made to balance players based on skill the adepts will end up getting matched up against the casuals and that will not be any fun for either.
6. MOST of the player base will be relatively casual, and matching them up with adept players who trounce them will give them little incentive to keep playing.
7. Losing these casual players and the revenue they contribute will kill MWO, the dedicated hardcore fans will not be able to contribute enough capital to make the game profitable without the casual players.
Games need to be balanced with respect to the mechs brought into the match BUT they also need to be balanced with regard to the relative skill level of the players.
Losing may be instructive but you do not pit little leaguers against professional athletes, games have to be played between players of relatively the same skill or what you get isn’t competition, and if the matches aren’t competitive, why bother.
2. The mechs in a match must be balanced, 4 assault mechs cannot be matched up against 4 light mechs. BV (battle value) or tonnage seem the most obvious way to accomplish this, but ultimately the means of balancing the mechs is immaterial so long as they are balanced.
3. No one at Piranha is going to monitor the matches and balance them, it will have to be done mathematically based on mech statistics.
4. Balancing the mechs in a match isn’t enough, players must be balanced according to their relative skill, and like mech balancing this will have to be done mathematically based on based on statistically traceable actions taken in the matches they have played. (I would suggest tracking the damage a player inflicts in a match relative to his/her BV or mech weight but the method is immaterial as long as the players are balanced.)
5. If no effort is made to balance players based on skill the adepts will end up getting matched up against the casuals and that will not be any fun for either.
6. MOST of the player base will be relatively casual, and matching them up with adept players who trounce them will give them little incentive to keep playing.
7. Losing these casual players and the revenue they contribute will kill MWO, the dedicated hardcore fans will not be able to contribute enough capital to make the game profitable without the casual players.
Games need to be balanced with respect to the mechs brought into the match BUT they also need to be balanced with regard to the relative skill level of the players.
Losing may be instructive but you do not pit little leaguers against professional athletes, games have to be played between players of relatively the same skill or what you get isn’t competition, and if the matches aren’t competitive, why bother.
#49
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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:49 PM
Gabriel Amarell, on 22 March 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:
1. The skill level of players will vary greatly, there will be adepts and those who are far less adept. The reason behind the discrepancy is immaterial.
2. The mechs in a match must be balanced, 4 assault mechs cannot be matched up against 4 light mechs. BV (battle value) or tonnage seem the most obvious way to accomplish this, but ultimately the means of balancing the mechs is immaterial so long as they are balanced.
3. No one at Piranha is going to monitor the matches and balance them, it will have to be done mathematically based on mech statistics.
4. Balancing the mechs in a match isn’t enough, players must be balanced according to their relative skill, and like mech balancing this will have to be done mathematically based on based on statistically traceable actions taken in the matches they have played. (I would suggest tracking the damage a player inflicts in a match relative to his/her BV or mech weight but the method is immaterial as long as the players are balanced.)
5. If no effort is made to balance players based on skill the adepts will end up getting matched up against the casuals and that will not be any fun for either.
6. MOST of the player base will be relatively casual, and matching them up with adept players who trounce them will give them little incentive to keep playing.
7. Losing these casual players and the revenue they contribute will kill MWO, the dedicated hardcore fans will not be able to contribute enough capital to make the game profitable without the casual players.
Games need to be balanced with respect to the mechs brought into the match BUT they also need to be balanced with regard to the relative skill level of the players.
Losing may be instructive but you do not pit little leaguers against professional athletes, games have to be played between players of relatively the same skill or what you get isn’t competition, and if the matches aren’t competitive, why bother.
2. The mechs in a match must be balanced, 4 assault mechs cannot be matched up against 4 light mechs. BV (battle value) or tonnage seem the most obvious way to accomplish this, but ultimately the means of balancing the mechs is immaterial so long as they are balanced.
3. No one at Piranha is going to monitor the matches and balance them, it will have to be done mathematically based on mech statistics.
4. Balancing the mechs in a match isn’t enough, players must be balanced according to their relative skill, and like mech balancing this will have to be done mathematically based on based on statistically traceable actions taken in the matches they have played. (I would suggest tracking the damage a player inflicts in a match relative to his/her BV or mech weight but the method is immaterial as long as the players are balanced.)
5. If no effort is made to balance players based on skill the adepts will end up getting matched up against the casuals and that will not be any fun for either.
6. MOST of the player base will be relatively casual, and matching them up with adept players who trounce them will give them little incentive to keep playing.
7. Losing these casual players and the revenue they contribute will kill MWO, the dedicated hardcore fans will not be able to contribute enough capital to make the game profitable without the casual players.
Games need to be balanced with respect to the mechs brought into the match BUT they also need to be balanced with regard to the relative skill level of the players.
Losing may be instructive but you do not pit little leaguers against professional athletes, games have to be played between players of relatively the same skill or what you get isn’t competition, and if the matches aren’t competitive, why bother.
1. Agreed
2. Agreed, however a team of lights can kill a team of assaults if the lights can draw them apart. Trying to say Assault>Heavy>Medium>Light does not and will not work.
4. So eventually these players of 'high statistics' will eventually get down to be average like everyone else. That is what you are suggesting because law of averages would come into play and since all matches have winners and lowers, you will inevitably have to lose no matter how good you/team are because you just can't inflict the damage or win all the time.
5,6,7. World of Tanks wants to have a word with you. New people are trying it every day and people leave it every day. Wargaming is now making double digit million profits every month now. Casuals come and go, Thats why they are called casuals.
#50
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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:56 PM
maybe they could have bunny hills?
I dont mind playing against players better than me , just cheaters
I dont mind playing against players better than me , just cheaters
Edited by FinnMcKool, 22 March 2012 - 06:58 PM.
#51
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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:37 PM
Black Sunder, on 22 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:
5,6,7. World of Tanks wants to have a word with you. New people are trying it every day and people leave it every day. Wargaming is now making double digit million profits every month now. Casuals come and go, Thats why they are called casuals.
Yeah, and the majority of those profits are made in russia where both the gaming market and playstyle are different. The North American server of WoT, which covers both americas, plus a large chunk of the oceanic region tops out at... a bit over 20K players at peak times. Somewhat doubtful you can make "double digit million profits" with that kind of playerbase. And those numbers have pretty much remained the same for months now, despite various PR efforts.
Considering how many "veteran players" in WoT pretty much refuse to give any more money for this game with one game mode only since CBT (well over a year now), a broken matchmaking and pages over pages of complaints about game "features" on the forums, I have to wonder how much if any profit they make with the NA server. Despite WoT being one of the highest charging games for their "cash shop/Pay2Win" content. And considering the numbers... they also claim to have millions of accounts subscribed to WoT. How many of those are actually active though... I could easily make ten more accounts personally. And never play them once. Still they would remain and be counted among those "millions" of players subscribed. Go figure...
#52
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Posted 23 March 2012 - 04:15 AM
Dlardrageth, on 22 March 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:
Yeah, and the majority of those profits are made in russia where both the gaming market and playstyle are different. The North American server of WoT, which covers both americas, plus a large chunk of the oceanic region tops out at... a bit over 20K players at peak times. Somewhat doubtful you can make "double digit million profits" with that kind of playerbase. And those numbers have pretty much remained the same for months now, despite various PR efforts.
Considering that MWO won't just be NA region based, this falls flat. Already we have thousands of Russian players registered to play this game. So what if the vast majority WoT's playerbase is in Russia. It doesn't matter where the money comes from, WG.net is still pulling in double digit millions a month.
Quote
Considering how many "veteran players" in WoT pretty much refuse to give any more money for this game with one game mode only since CBT (well over a year now), a broken matchmaking and pages over pages of complaints about game "features" on the forums, I have to wonder how much if any profit they make with the NA server. Despite WoT being one of the highest charging games for their "cash shop/Pay2Win" content. And considering the numbers... they also claim to have millions of accounts subscribed to WoT. How many of those are actually active though... I could easily make ten more accounts personally. And never play them once. Still they would remain and be counted among those "millions" of players subscribed. Go figure...
I will agree with you here about subscriber numbers as I too also believe they count inactive accounts in their statistics. I will also agree that there are numerous problems associated with the game(gold ammo, MM, etc) that are not getting fixed because of 2 reasons. A) they are making too much money to care
they listen to their russian base more than anyone else because they are the majority.
#53
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Posted 23 March 2012 - 04:43 AM
Black Sunder, on 22 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:
5,6,7. World of Tanks wants to have a word with you. New people are trying it every day and people leave it every day. Wargaming is now making double digit million profits every month now. Casuals come and go, Thats why they are called casuals.
WoT has one of the worst matchmaking systems i've ever seen, not only it refuses to use any balancing between the teams via skill level but it also balances the weight of the tanks questionably ie all of the same kind of tanks on one side (except arties which are somewhat balanced), full medium team vs heavies etc.
Even if you look past the fact that with the somewhat flawed community skill addons you can predict the outcome of most of the battles, the obvious imbalances between weight classes are like a gigantic tree growing out of your nose, you can't miss it.
That example shouldn't be followed.
ps.: There are only a finite number of players if a game constantly urges players the leave it alone then eventually there won't be any new players who are interested.
Edited by Bloody Moon, 23 March 2012 - 04:47 AM.
#54
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Posted 23 March 2012 - 05:09 AM
people are saying best way to learn is against better players , this I agree with but putting (for lack of a better term) "noobs" with elite players doesn't teach them , in my experince you just annoy them. you need better but not elite players to learn from. I agree that there should be NO balancing for matches which win or lose planets but for random games you need it or people don't learn: maybe at launch it won't be a big problem but a year or two down the line is when the there is going to be a sizable number of "elites" and the steam rolling games will occur.
(sorry if poor english I'm far to tired today XD.)
(sorry if poor english I'm far to tired today XD.)
#55
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Posted 23 March 2012 - 06:25 AM
This is a "false positive" question. The whole point of having a microtransaction + F2P is to give "casuals" a way to catch up with people that "grind/play all the time", through the purchase of small items like EXP boosters.
If Game Grinder X is "LOL whut? support the game, nah bro is FREE 2 PL@Y!! I'm not spending any money on this." Then yeah his unlocks are based on time.
Working Guy Y is "Man I just got off a 9 hour shift, so tired and can't really play 4 hours of MWO tonight. Hmm I'll spend $5 (seriously, it's not that much, i need to cutback on redbull and burgers any how) and get and EXP booster that way I can maximize the time i play and finally unlock that sweet ABC Talent/Module/Mech/Level/Rank etc."
These two groups typically make the vast majority of players. Obviously a game would want more Y than X, you know, to make money so they can keep the lights on. The MicroT/F2P style "balances" these two types naturally.
Of course then there's...
STAR SGT MECHWARRIOR Z (s)He is the LUVS <3 Mechwarrior Online, is probably in a unit/clan and quite possibly spend up $10 a week on MWO (cause seriously, $10 for a movie ticket and $6 popcorn? F that noise, I'm staying at home and spending money/playing MWO since it's CHEAPER and more satisfying.) They probably play daily in pubs (haha noob stomping), Unit practices, and/or Organized league play.
Groups X and Y will NEVER be balanced to Z and nor should they. Z is the loyal fanbase that spends money to support the devs/game. They're also the folk that spread word of mouth to get more X players in game and hopefully the community of embraces them to turn into Y's or Z's
If Game Grinder X is "LOL whut? support the game, nah bro is FREE 2 PL@Y!! I'm not spending any money on this." Then yeah his unlocks are based on time.
Working Guy Y is "Man I just got off a 9 hour shift, so tired and can't really play 4 hours of MWO tonight. Hmm I'll spend $5 (seriously, it's not that much, i need to cutback on redbull and burgers any how) and get and EXP booster that way I can maximize the time i play and finally unlock that sweet ABC Talent/Module/Mech/Level/Rank etc."
These two groups typically make the vast majority of players. Obviously a game would want more Y than X, you know, to make money so they can keep the lights on. The MicroT/F2P style "balances" these two types naturally.
Of course then there's...
STAR SGT MECHWARRIOR Z (s)He is the LUVS <3 Mechwarrior Online, is probably in a unit/clan and quite possibly spend up $10 a week on MWO (cause seriously, $10 for a movie ticket and $6 popcorn? F that noise, I'm staying at home and spending money/playing MWO since it's CHEAPER and more satisfying.) They probably play daily in pubs (haha noob stomping), Unit practices, and/or Organized league play.
Groups X and Y will NEVER be balanced to Z and nor should they. Z is the loyal fanbase that spends money to support the devs/game. They're also the folk that spread word of mouth to get more X players in game and hopefully the community of embraces them to turn into Y's or Z's
#56
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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:10 AM
"Working Guy Y is "Man I just got off a 9 hour shift, so tired and can't really play"
LOL, sorry, had to laugh at this.. you must have never worked in the oilfield before.
LOL, sorry, had to laugh at this.. you must have never worked in the oilfield before.
#57
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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:25 AM
Along the same line as balancing mech tonnage. Just wait until clans appear. Plus how will you balance clans? In TT a game involving clan vs IS the IS player gets 50% more in BV or tonnage than the clan player to balance out the huge tech advantage. Yes that reads if you are playing a 500 ton game, the IS player gets 750 tons. And that is using stock mechs and none of the customized heresies that people are talking about, if those come true throw any semblance of balance out the window.
#58
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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:18 AM
As long as there are players off in their own world doing their own thing (and there will be) teams will always have the chance of getting steam rolled by a team that is more tacktically proficiant. The plus side is, as the mechwarrior community isn't as instant action based as COD for example, we should have a lot less players that you just want to shake and yell "WHAT THE HECK IS IT YOU THINK YOUR DOING!"
"what is that on your uniform?" Twisted Sister?!?
Im a Type Z player according to SquareSphere's Theory
"what is that on your uniform?" Twisted Sister?!?
Quote
STAR SGT MECHWARRIOR Z (s)He is the LUVS <3 Mechwarrior Online, is probably in a unit/clan and quite possibly spend up $10 a week on MWO (cause seriously, $10 for a movie ticket and $6 popcorn? F that noise, I'm staying at home and spending money/playing MWO since it's CHEAPER and more satisfying.) They probably play daily in pubs (haha noob stomping), Unit practices, and/or Organized league play.
Im a Type Z player according to SquareSphere's Theory
Edited by T0RC4ED, 23 March 2012 - 10:26 AM.
#59
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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:01 PM
Tronchaser, on 23 March 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:
"Working Guy Y is "Man I just got off a 9 hour shift, so tired and can't really play"
LOL, sorry, had to laugh at this.. you must have never worked in the oilfield before.
LOL, sorry, had to laugh at this.. you must have never worked in the oilfield before.
obviously, or on a boat, military, or emergency hospital etc. setting were hours are vastly different than a normal office job.
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