1258 replies to this topic

[Wraith 1]

I think I'll go with whoever will give me a Timber....
...Wolf.

[zudukai]

i choose the Clan Star Adder, both the mindset and the politics are like minded.

[HeartoftheJaguar]

I think the warden philosophy is more in line with Alexander Kerensky's hidden hope doctrine. While the crusaders' views are in line with Nicholas Kerensky, who explicitly mentions conquering the inner sphere in Betrayal of Ideals, albeit in more poetic language. Who's to say who's right? Well Alexander never envisioned the founding of the clans, that was entirely his son Nicholas. So I would argue that the crusaders are correctly following theit founder's intent.

And I'm not a big fan of the wolves because if it weren't for their Khan Kerlin Ward ordering the Wolf's Dragoons to aid and prepare the Inner Sphere for the clan invasion, the clans would have probably been successful in conquering it. (You know other than the reasons of just the writers intending it to be so but I like to imagine what ifs.)

[CoffiNail]

Wraith-1, on 08 November 2011 - 02:22 PM, said:

I think I'll go with whoever will give me a Timber....
...Wolf.

Well considering all clans use the Timber Wolf...

Yeah Wolf used it the most, being their totem mech, but all the Clans had them. And exclusive mech is the Viper, Ghost Bear uses those the most as that 40 ton medium mech is our light 'scout' mech.

[taxman]

CoffiNail, on 08 November 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

New Star League, it held together about as well as it did while Richard Cameron was becoming of age, and while the Usurper was in his demented mind in power until the great father showed him the same kindness he showed the Cameron family.

It was no star league, but a haphazard band of armies. It dissolved fairly soon afterwards, where is your Star League now? How many planets do you Nova Cats control? Your loaner worlds pale in comparison. Your visions led you astray, sadly you will never admit your folly.

Sadly, Clan Nova Cat was the only Clan to return to the Innersphere, it must hurt to be allways looking at that that you cannot have.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Neg the Ghost Bears eventually went to the IS as well. Later on so did other clans including Wolf. Read on a bit further.

[Semyon Drakon]

daneiel varna, on 02 November 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

I will not vote in that poll , there are missing some of the crusaders Star Adder ( my favorite ) ,Hell's Horses , Ice Hellion , Fire Mandrill , Snow Raven and Blood Spirit - they are crusaders and need to be in the list .

Remember we are sticking to the timeline and the game is set in the IS. These are the original invading clans, the others never fight in the IS.

And I want to be squishing Savashri Freebirths...

Semyon

[Joxer the Mighty]

My heart, courage, loyalty, victories, and death, for the Ghost Bear Clan....Always.

[benefedaykin]

Ghost Bear all the way

[Jack Gallows]

taxman, on 08 November 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:

Sadly, Clan Nova Cat was the only Clan to return to the Innersphere, it must hurt to be allways looking at that that you cannot have.

Ghost Bears have as well, if in a different way. They became part of their dominated sector of space, and rule with the FRR people. They've done far better in "returning" to the IS then many others. The Bear's prove wise, just like some of the other Warden clans out there.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 10 November 2011 - 01:21 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

HeartoftheJaguar, on 08 November 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

I think the warden philosophy is more in line with Alexander Kerensky's hidden hope doctrine. While the crusaders' views are in line with Nicholas Kerensky, who explicitly mentions conquering the inner sphere in Betrayal of Ideals, albeit in more poetic language. Who's to say who's right? Well Alexander never envisioned the founding of the clans, that was entirely his son Nicholas. So I would argue that the crusaders are correctly following theit founder's intent.

And I'm not a big fan of the wolves because if it weren't for their Khan Kerlin Ward ordering the Wolf's Dragoons to aid and prepare the Inner Sphere for the clan invasion, the clans would have probably been successful in conquering it. (You know other than the reasons of just the writers intending it to be so but I like to imagine what ifs.)

even if they took Terra they never would have 'won.' They would have driven straight to Terra...and in doing so Steiner//Kurita forces would have encirled their supply corridor. Then all Five Great Houses would launch a semi-united operation to get Terra back, a sort of reenacting of Kerensky's Liberation of Terra. Let's face it, the clans were never meant to win. Strip away their combat doctrine and we still see they just don't have the numbers to accomplish what they want.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Not necessarily. GIven that Clan Wolf was the only Clan to win their objectives on Tukayyid because of Ulric's vision regarding the supplies & the guarding of said supplies, I can see that if Clan Wolf took Terra & became the ilClan, they would have designated the other clans to protect the supply routes.

[Jack Gallows]

Jaroth Winson, on 11 November 2011 - 09:04 AM, said:

Not necessarily. GIven that Clan Wolf was the only Clan to win their objectives on Tukayyid because of Ulric's vision regarding the supplies & the guarding of said supplies, I can see that if Clan Wolf took Terra & became the ilClan, they would have designated the other clans to protect the supply routes.

It's a good possibility, also considering how they (the warden wolves, anyway) actually took the time to garrison and strengthen the planets they took. Something increasingly important as the got closer to Terra due to more involvement by fresh militaries like the Capellans.

Lots of ifs, and a hard road to keep with the entire Inner Sphere pressing in on each side with new technologies.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 11 November 2011 - 09:15 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Jaroth Winson, on 11 November 2011 - 09:04 AM, said:

Not necessarily. GIven that Clan Wolf was the only Clan to win their objectives on Tukayyid because of Ulric's vision regarding the supplies & the guarding of said supplies, I can see that if Clan Wolf took Terra & became the ilClan, they would have designated the other clans to protect the supply routes.

but even so, Inner Sphere can mobilize more material, manpower, and intelligence. The clans arrival into IS space would still have been a galvanizing moment politically, and no House would ever let Terra fall to foreign invaders. Finally, Comstar would be ****** and instead of a Tukkayyid, you would have had the same situation play out only on Terra. Terra is one of the most heavily fortified and armed planets in the IS, clan tech or not good luck trying to take it while ferrying supplies all the way from the Kerensky Cluster, and these supplies are under constant raid from tireless House forces. If the Succession Wars made the Great Houses good at one thing; it was the Strategic Raid.

Think Napoleon's Grand Armee invading Russia.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 11 November 2011 - 09:20 AM.

[Glare]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 11 November 2011 - 08:54 AM, said:

even if they took Terra they never would have 'won.' They would have driven straight to Terra...and in doing so Steiner//Kurita forces would have encirled their supply corridor. Then all Five Great Houses would launch a semi-united operation to get Terra back, a sort of reenacting of Kerensky's Liberation of Terra. Let's face it, the clans were never meant to win. Strip away their combat doctrine and we still see they just don't have the numbers to accomplish what they want.

If any Clan had set foot on Terra, it would have become the ilClan. At that point, all Clan forces would be called up to pacify the rest of the Inner Sphere. Keep in mind that the force for Operation: Revival was but a fraction (albeit a large fraction) of the forces from only five Clans. Five out of 18 still surviving into the Invasion era. There were 13 more, fully equipped, fully rested, fully supplied entire Clans waiting for the call. In other words, something like triple-again the forces encountered to date as of Tukayyid. They have the numbers to carve out a significant enough block of the Inner Sphere to turn the Great Houses into glorified Periphery states.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Glare, on 11 November 2011 - 09:33 AM, said:

If any Clan had set foot on Terra, it would have become the ilClan. At that point, all Clan forces would be called up to pacify the rest of the Inner Sphere. Keep in mind that the force for Operation: Revival was but a fraction (albeit a large fraction) of the forces from only five Clans. Five out of 18 still surviving into the Invasion era. There were 13 more, fully equipped, fully rested, fully supplied entire Clans waiting for the call. In other words, something like triple-again the forces encountered to date as of Tukayyid. They have the numbers to carve out a significant enough block of the Inner Sphere to turn the Great Houses into glorified Periphery states.

I see your 13 un-deployed clans, and raise you the entire AFFS and even better; the combined might of the FWL. Now we combine this with Warden clans that might not want to fight. Question, what happens to the ilClan when they're driven off of Terra? (Comstar fought one of the most bloody engagements of recent history on a proxy planet rather than let Terra be subjected to it; that shows their devotion and commitment to defending the planet) cause with Terra is not an 'if' it's when. Again with the Napoleon example, the clans conquered many worlds yes...but how many were worth taking? how many would pay the occupiers back in war material? very very few.

We also saw in the wake of the Invasion and Refusal war how longit takes for Clans to reinforce their best frontline Armies or even train and raise new warriors. All the Inner Sphere has to do is hold and wear them down, the Inner Sphere is a massive region with access to 4-5 times the production capacity of the clans.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 11 November 2011 - 09:51 AM.

[Hodo]

You didnt have.

NONE- Clans were a gamebreaker added by FASA in a attempt to boost sagging sales due to Warhammer 40k.

Sorry cant stand the clans.

[Glare]

And herein lies the beauty of the ilClan. Even if the Warden Clans don't particularly want to do it, they're bound by Clan honor to do so, unless they fight a Trial of Refusal to excuse themselves. If they lose, they are pledged to help anyway. Five Clans carved a full 1/8th of the Inner Sphere in a wedge shape from the periphery rim more than halfway to Terra. Add 13 new Clans on top of that, and all hell will break use. The entire AFFS couldn't do a thing to stop them. Half-hearted border skirmishes with one Clan give the Lyrans enough of a headache that they dedicated the production of an entire sector (Arc-Royal Defense Cordon) to keeping them at bay. Aside from Taskforce Serpent, which was the combined might of the best of the best of the Inner Sphere rallied against a single, depleted Clan, and which still took devastating losses in the struggle, the only real change in territory within or around Clan space is Clans taking a few more Inner Sphere worlds, or losing a few worlds to other Clans. The next open war between a Clan and a Successor State was the Ghost Bear-Combine War. It lasted for a year, and Clan Ghost Bear gave as good as it got to the entire Draconis Combine. One Clan standing toe to toe with an entire Successor State and fighting to a standstill.

The reason the Clans didn't sweep straight to Terra and then the entire Inner Sphere is because it would have been a hideous plot thread and destroyed the dynamic of the Inner Sphere as we know it, not because it was impossible. Hence, the meta-engineered Truce of Tukayyid.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Quote

the combined might of the FWL

Or post-jihad, the might of the combined FWL-remnants.

Quote

NONE- Clans were a gamebreaker added by FASA in a attempt to boost sagging sales due to Warhammer 40k.

Clans were introduced in what, 1990 (Battle for Twycross scenario book)?
I think that WH40k was still called Rogue Trader back in those days.
And did they really have sales that awesome?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 11 November 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

I see your 13 un-deployed clans, and raise you the entire AFFS and even better; the combined might of the FWL. Now we combine this with Warden clans that might not want to fight. Question, what happens to the ilClan when they're driven off of Terra? (Comstar fought one of the most bloody engagements of recent history on a proxy planet rather than let Terra be subjected to it; that shows their devotion and commitment to defending the planet) cause with Terra is not an 'if' it's when. Again with the Napoleon example, the clans conquered many worlds yes...but how many were worth taking? how many would pay the occupiers back in war material? very very few.

We also saw in the wake of the Invasion and Refusal war how longit takes for Clans to reinforce their best frontline Armies or even train and raise new warriors. All the Inner Sphere has to do is hold and wear them down, the Inner Sphere is a massive region with access to 4-5 times the production capacity of the clans.

This is flawed on so many levels. Did you use might & FWL in the same sentence? Please you are speaking about ONE part of the IS coming to the aid of the whole when the whole was getting crushed? Seriously? Did you think this through? You have nothing to raise with. Remember there are originally 4 active invasion Clans, Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear & Smoke Jaguar. The Steel Vipers & the Nova Cats were activated as reserves only at a certain point but still in total 6. There were 11 Clans left who could had they been involved as well ripped a hole through the IS as never had seen before. If 4 Clans initially, then 6 a little while later, did so much damage, what makes you think the arrival of 11 more would not end the IS way of life as they knew it?

Your description of Comstar is inaccurate. Were they the protectors of Terra? this is true but as they say the ends cannot justify the means. They DID put themselves between the Clans & Terra; the problem is they did not do it for honor, but for greed. Comstar had been dealing with the Clans prior to the invasion & it is only when they learned that Terra was the prize that they decided to oppose the Clans. They met with strangers to discuss the invasion of their own universe! If it was Hanse Davion or Takashi Kurita I would not mind, but strangers? They protected Terra only because they wanted it for themselves. What do you mean worth taking? If I take everything from you it is ALL worth it. The Clans did not need IS reproduction for anything as their tech was by far superior. They could have razed the planets & built over factories, mills etc.

Again Clan Wolf shows that they do things a lot more efficiently than other Clans. Taking a planet is a lot less problematic than with other Clans. Administration is usually left up to the people that were already there & the switching out from front line to garrison warriors is seamless.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 11 November 2011 - 11:20 AM.