220 replies to this topic

[Grey Black]

Could the Clans ever hold the Inner Sphere? In the immortal words of Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, "Short answer: No. Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo."

However, I do have to qualify this to some extent. If the Clans were to band together, set aside any differences they might have, set in motion a unified command structure and/or give the ilKhan complete control over the dealings of the Clans (for example, being able to paint the targets which needed to be attacked and by exactly the correct amount), exercise total warfare, bring the entirety of the clans in the initial invasion force (and not, as they did in the literature, bid for a spot in the invasion force), uproot their entire society and transplant them here, then they might stand a significant chance of occupying the Inner Sphere for an extended period of time.

Now, reread that last paragraph and ask yourself how Clan-like that sounds. In the end, it would turn Clan society into a society of Mary Sue's and be completely unrealistic. Ask yourself: How would a Jade Falcon respond to being governed by the Wolves? Hell, how DID the Wolves respond to the Trial of Absorption by Jade Falcon after the Refusal War? At the end of that, Vlad asserted the sovereignty of the Wolves from foreign invaders by killing the two leaders of the Jade Falcons. If the CLANS can't allow themselves to be governed by another CLAN, then how would the Inner Sphere respond to such an occupation?

Combine this, now with a MASSIVE numerical advantage (Clans: ~200-800 billion, IS: between 5,000 and 630,000 billion (or 5 and 630 trillion depending on how you do the math (source at end of post)), and being able to hold an additional 1,707 worlds in addition to their 190 worlds currently owned (a sufficient minority of which is in the Periphery, not the Inner Sphere proper), and this tells you how things will go.

Alternatively, military sizes: ~47,736 Mechs in 3050 (if Phelan's numbers are to be believed in Lethal Heritage, not including mercenaries or Comstar) in the IS vs. 10,800 mechs for the 16 clans (all numbers are approximated). There is literally a 4 to 1 advantage for the Inner Sphere, and, based on the Clan ER Medium Laser vs. the IS Medium Laser, clan tech does not give a 4 to 1 advantage. We can't even account for the Trueborn/Freeborn distinction because, unless the Trueborns are so much more adept at fighting than their IS counterparts (which, Kai's analysis is to be believed, is false based on the rounds fired over time and the difficulty Clanners have changing targets when engaged in total warfare and not bound by Zellbrigen), even that won't make up a 4 to 1 advantage in Mechs.

Besides that, the Inner Sphere can do this:



Based on this data, I respond that, unless there is a complete overhaul in Clan society, reduction in the fractures in military structure, and better overall strategy in the Clans, the Clans would never be able to take, let alone hold, the Inner Sphere.

http://psychopompous...-in-battletech/

[Ashla Mason]

Depends on the clan in question Vod; clan wolf and ghost bear both espoused a more liberal view of the rights of the conquered territories for various reasons (Clan wolf because it was the essence of the warden way and ghost bear because of the stronger sense of community between various castes) while jade falcon and smoke jaguar were unyielding in there views (jade falcon because they insisted on being as true as possible to there interpretation of kerenskies origional vision and the jags because there warrior caste was insanely overbearing).

In general though, we can all agree that a few things would happen right off the bat.

First, the populace would be assessed and then broken down into castes based on their apptitudes. This would probably be fairly simple, since most people would already have naturally gravitated to positions that they work best in. Ironically, the people who tend to struggle to find work and the homeless would actually be better off since they would be placed into the labor caste and recieve the various necessities of life that they couldn't under a more traditional capitalist society.

Much trickier would be implementing the eugenics program. The clans have managed to disentangle the concepts of love, family and sex from each other in favor of trying to ensure that their castes produce optimized children and while their own castes don't have a problem with this, the people of the IS would likely take serious offense at being told who to breed with. To the best of my knowledge, clan ghostbear is the only clan who hasn't had to deal with this by choosing not to enforce breeding protocols on their conquered worlds.

Religious freedom is something that would be repected by the clans probably moreso then any of the great houses since the clans ~being fairly ambivilent on the matter~ wouldn't care enough to either try and ban it. Provided of course that the religion didn't seek to undermine clan society.

[Vodkavaiator]

Indeed, however, I still thinks it is rather silly to portray the Inner Sphere and Clans as Black/White regardless of what view one holds. There are examples of both sides doing good and bad things, some aspects of the Clans are good, some aspects of the Inner Sphere are good and other aspects of both are rather bad; the problem it depends on what evidence one decides to use.

Discussions here remind me too much of Capitalism vs. Socialism debates, where both sides do their best to paint the other side as villains while ignoring the flaws of their own political ideology.

(In all honesty I find both the Clans and Inner Sphere to be rather abhorrent. I never really understand why people feel either of them would represent an ideal or nice society to live in. If anything they remind me most of some strange perversions of National Socialism/Communism and Feudalism/Capitalism.)

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I don't really see how #1 and #2 would go over well.

For example how easy would it be to suddenly convince all of the United States to become a eugenics based socialist state?

Despite the fact that a large portion of the population might benefit from such a change, I wouldn't really see it as feasible to do so.
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Interesting post Grey Black and a very nice analysis by psychopompous.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 23 October 2012 - 12:16 PM.

[ShotgunWillie]

IceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Technically speaking, it is guaranteed - if you keep wiping them out, eventually there will be no population left at all and the problem will solve itself so to speak.

Fair enough. I can conceed that point.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Total nonsense Grey Black.

Quote

However, I do have to qualify this to some extent. If the Clans were to band together, set aside any differences they might have, set in motion a unified command structure and/or give the ilKhan complete control over the dealings of the Clans (for example, being able to paint the targets which needed to be attacked and by exactly the correct amount), exercise total warfare, bring the entirety of the clans in the initial invasion force (and not, as they did in the literature, bid for a spot in the invasion force), uproot their entire society and transplant them here, then they might stand a significant chance of occupying the Inner Sphere for an extended period of time.

Thank you for admitting it. In your attempt at a rebuttal you unwittingly did the opposite. That is what they WERE doing. That is why an ilKhan is elected; to coordinate the Clans.




The Clans - Warriors of Kerensky Pg.18

As I mentioned before, the cooperation might have been fragile & temporary but it was REAL. The source shows that WITHOUT resorting to total warfare, the Clans were kicking the IS pilots collective *****.

Quote

Now, reread that last paragraph and ask yourself how Clan-like that sounds. In the end, it would turn Clan society into a society of Mary Sue's and be completely unrealistic. Ask yourself: How would a Jade Falcon respond to being governed by the Wolves? Hell, how DID the Wolves respond to the Trial of Absorption by Jade Falcon after the Refusal War? At the end of that, Vlad asserted the sovereignty of the Wolves from foreign invaders by killing the two leaders of the Jade Falcons. If the CLANS can't allow themselves to be governed by another CLAN, then how would the Inner Sphere respond to such an occupation?

What absolute nonsense are you writing? Why do people believe nobody here has read the lore? That will not turn them into anything; THAT IS HOW THEY ARE. That is why the position of ilKhan exists. For the record it was the Falcons who interpreted Nicholas Kerensky's word & determined HE was describing an ilClan. Of course they expect it would be them, but if THEY came up with it, they would have to abide by it no matter which Clan became the ilClan.



The Clans - Warriors of Kerensky Pg.18

For the record the Absorption of the Wolves by the Falcons was illegal. This has been documented. That is why the Wolves fought as they did.

Quote

"Why are you dressed as a Falcon?"

"Because that is what I am."

That is impossible. He could not conceive of Marialle surrendering to the Falcons. Even if she had, they would have made her a bondswoman first and then, sometime later, they might have allowed her to become a MechWarrior again. And she called herself Marialle Radick, but the Jade Falcons do not possess blood from that line. It is a Wolf bloodline only. "How are you a Jade Falcon?"

"That is what we all are now, Vlad. The Wolves lost a Trial of Absorption. We are all Jade Falcons now."

Vlad's mouth hung open. "What?"

"Khan Chistu told us, the survivors, that we had been absorbed into the Jade Falcons. This is why he undertook the Ritual of Abjuration—he would not have Jade Falcons fighting Jade Falcons on Morges."

"But this was never a Ritual of Absorption."

"Not formally, no, but Khan Chistu said that when Natasha and Phelan pledged everything the Wolves had to fighting the Trial of Refusal, it automatically became a Ritual of Absorption." Marialle leaned forward slightly. "I did not like it at first—none of us did—but the logic is inescapable. Our war with the Jade Falcons hurt them badly, and hurt us badly. Alone, neither of our Clans is strong enough to stand, but together we are a fearsome force. The warriors who have survived are the best on both sides. Khan Chistu says this was a crucible in which the impurities of both Clans were burned away."

Vlad scowled. "The Trial of Refusal occurred in response to charges of gen_ocide and treason against Ulric.The Wolves defeated the Jade Falcons on every world where we fought, save here."

Marialle threw him a sharp look. "It was closer to a draw. The Falcons offered us terms after Ulric's death. The terms were honorable and we accepted them. Some of us ran to Phelan, others stayed here."

"And Phelan still fights. The Wolves have not been defeated yet, Star Captain Radick."

"What are you saying?"

"The chronology of events you presented gives me the impression that Khan Chistu announced our absorption, then he initiated the Ritual of Abjuration to exile the Wolves who oppose his Jade Falcons on Morges, quiaff?"

"That is how it happened, aff."

"Yet the Wolves could only be absorbed if defeated, quaiff?"

"Aff." Marialle's eyes narrowed. "You are saying that if Phelan defeated the Jade Falcons, he could return and challenge Khan Chistu to a Trial of Refusal concerning the absorption and abjuration."

"Chistu would not have to acknowledge Phelan's claim because he has been abjured. It would take a Wolf to challenge the Absorption, but all the Wolves here on Wotan have become Jade Falcons."

"Except you."

"Except me. Come, Star Captain, help me from this tomb." Vlad smiled and stood slowly. "Tell me more of this fiction Khan Chistu has created about the death of Ulric. Do it, and I will show you how our honor may be redeemed. Do it and you will see why the Wolves were entrusted to me."

Malicious Intent


We have the source material to read of other Clans that were absorbed LEGALLY & there was no fuss. Try your ******** somewhere else.

The numerical advantage again. ROFLMAO. Buddy pack your **** & go home. It has been documented that not only are Clan pilots superior to their IS counterparts meaning 1 Clan pilot = x number of IS ones, the Clans by nature CHOOSE to fight at a numerical disadvantage. Try your ******** somewhere else.

Whatever that pic is it is not loading for me. I am anxious to see what the IS does. What other ******** have you come up with.

You people do not get it. No matter how hard you mash your keyboard or try to analyze or evaluate ****, I have a HUGE collection of source material to club you over the head with & since it was written by the people who created the universe, you cannot argue with that.

What a nonsensical post. Keep it coming.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 October 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[Vodkavaiator]

Jaroth Winson, on 23 October 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

You people do not get it. No matter how hard you mash your keyboard or try to analyze or evaluate ****, I have a HUGE collection of source material to club you over the head with & since it was written by the people who created the universe, you cannot argue with that.

Sweet!

Then we can already end this thread by saying that according to the cannon, official Battletech sources the Clan invasion failed and they could thus not hold control of the Inner Sphere. You know considering that the entire premiss of this thread is a "What if" scenario...

/End of thread.

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However we could of course continue to discuss this matter from a hypothetical point of view...

Otherwise I don't see it as possible to discuss further since we already know the clans cannot and will not succeed. (See cannon for an explanation of why this discussion is irrelevant then.)

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 23 October 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Vodkavaiator, on 23 October 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Sweet!

Then we can already end this thread by saying that according to the cannon, official Battletech sources the Clan invasion failed and they could thus not hold control of the Inner Sphere. You know considering that the entire premiss of this thread is a "What if" scenario...

/End of thread.

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However we could discuss this matter from a hypothetical point of view, otherwise I don't see it as possible to discuss further since we already know the clans cannot and will not succeed. (See cannon for an explanation of why this discussion is irrelevant then.)

you...I like you.

[Jaroth Corbett]

As I mentioned before, it was written that way for expanding the lore. If the Clans won then what? Klondike was clearly a success. ALL the clans attack ALL the worlds. It is there, read it sometime.

K thanks buh-bye.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 October 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[Vodkavaiator]

Jaroth Winson, on 23 October 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

As I mentioned before, it was written that way for expanding the lore.

So? As you pointed out earlier we should not be arguing about what might have happened as the glorious cannon descrbies exactly what occurred...

Your words not mine:

Quote

since it was written by the people who created the universe, you cannot argue with that.

Operation Klondike whilst an admirable success ultimately had little to do with the Invasion of the IS.

However, when the Clans invaded(to eventually hold control of) the IS for various reasons they failed, not much to debate in that regard. Thus if we are limited so stringently to the lore and what was literally stated then there is absolutely nothing to discuss.

You cannot say that we must adhere to lore in some cases but then we can diverge from the lore in other areas simply because it suits your arguments.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 23 October 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[pbiggz]

The clans were from a logistical standpoint, more than capable of taking control of the inner sphere utterly. They had the fire power, the resources, and a whole whack of second line mechs that never saw real action in the sphere. Paying attention to the wolves during the invasion, their tactics (which consisted of bringing supplies and readying for a long campaign) allowed them to rapidly expand their occupation zone, despite the other clans slowing down once the spheroids begun to move defenders to their coreward borders. What stopped the clans aside from their obvious underestimating of the inner sphere, was their inability to actually work together, coupled with ulric kerensky's political espionage, and his clan's work to rein in the now uncontrollable crusader clans.

It is important to note that though they had the firepower and supplies, the crusader philosophy would not withstand the test of time. This is exemplified in the later relative prosperity of the warden clan wolf in exile that inhabited the Lyran alliance, and the formation of the ghost bear dominion, and later the Rasalhague dominion, also in the sphere, whilst crusaders such as the jade falcons and steel vipers destroyed each other, and the smoke jaguars were utterly annihilated.

My main point is, clan wolf's tactics during the invasion proved that the clans were more than capable of taking the sphere. The wolves did not underestimate the spheroids, they also cooperated with the planets they took control of. This policy was not followed by the other clans and this is one of the reasons they failed to take the sphere.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Vodkavaiator, on 23 October 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

So? As you pointed out earlier we should not be arguing about what might have happened as the glorious cannon descrbies exactly what occurred...

Your words not mine:


Operation Klondike whilst an admirable success ultimately had little to do with the Invasion of the IS.

However, when the Clans invaded(to eventually hold control of) the IS for various reasons they failed, not much to debate in that regard. Thus if we are limited so stringently to the lore and what was literally stated then there is absolutely nothing to discuss.

You cannot say that we must adhere to lore in some cases but then we can diverge from the lore in other areas simply because it suits your arguments.

I think you are trying to sound smart & failing at it.

The Clans HAD to succeed at Klondike; their expansion lore-wise depended on it.

They HAD to lose at Revival; the expansion of the general lore depended on it.

Using the question of this thread Could it be done? the lore shows us YES because Klondike was prosecuted that way & was successful.

The invasion of the IS was NOT written that way because the Clans would win & how would you expand the lore from there. It would be game over. I never asked anyone to adhere to a specific part & not another. I am using the lore to establish a logical line of thinking that if a specific action was undertaken & succeeded, chances are there is a high probability that the same action would have resulted in success also. The fact that it would not have given BT writers the chance to expand the universe is besides the point of this thread.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 October 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[Vodkavaiator]

Quote

I think you are trying to sound smart & failing at it.

Insults are fun and all but I don't see the need to make this personal.

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What I find silly is that in one case, we are to extrapolate that since the Clans succeeded during Operation Klondike they could also succeed in invading the IS.

However, at the same time we are not allowed to discuss hypothetical problems with the Clan's chance of success because it was not mentioned in the lore or literally described in a novel.

You then argue the Clan's working together should logically succeed but if we are only following the lore then we know that they failed exactly in this regard. The Crusaders and Warden could not ultimately not work well enough together to defeat the IS. Nor did the majority of the clans adapt sufficiently to the form of warfare that success would have required...

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 23 October 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Grey Black]

Jaroth Winson, on 23 October 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Total nonsense Grey Black.



Thank you for admitting it. In your attempt at a rebuttal you unwittingly did the opposite. That is what they WERE doing. That is why an ilKhan is elected; to coordinate the Clans.




The Clans - Warriors of Kerensky Pg.18

As I mentioned before, the cooperation might have been fragile & temporary but it was REAL. The source shows that WITHOUT resorting to total warfare, the Clans were kicking the IS pilots collective *****.




What absolute nonsense are you writing? Why do people believe nobody here has read the lore? That will not turn them into anything; THAT IS HOW THEY ARE. That is why the position of ilKhan exists. For the record it was the Falcons who interpreted Nicholas Kerensky's word & determined HE was describing an ilClan. Of course they expect it would be them, but if THEY came up with it, they would have to abide by it no matter which Clan became the ilClan.



The Clans - Warriors of Kerensky Pg.18

For the record the Absorption of the Wolves by the Falcons was illegal. This has been documented. That is why the Wolves fought as they did.






Malicious Intent


We have the source material to read of other Clans that were absorbed LEGALLY & there was no fuss. Try your ******** somewhere else.

The numerical advantage again. ROFLMAO. Buddy pack your **** & go home. It has been documented that not only are Clan pilots superior to their IS counterparts meaning 1 Clan pilot = x number of IS ones, the Clans by nature CHOOSE to fight at a numerical disadvantage. Try your ******** somewhere else.

Whatever that pic is it is not loading for me. I am anxious to see what the IS does. What other ******** have you come up with.

You people do not get it. No matter how hard you mash your keyboard or try to analyze or evaluate ****, I have a HUGE collection of source material to club you over the head with & since it was written by the people who created the universe, you cannot argue with that.

What a nonsensical post. Keep it coming.

Something to remember about quoting from the sourcebooks like The Clans - Warriors of Kerensky is that all sourcebooks are written in-universe, which often leads to subtle jabs or hints that ComStar is covering things up. I will ignore that for now and accept your point regarding ilKhan and instead continue on another avenue.

Something i realize looking back over the thread is the pattern seems to be this:

IS player (now called an IS-sy Fit): Clans can't hold the Inner Sphere because of the culture they fight by.
Clan player (now called a Clanboy): Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: Perhaps. But what about the numerical advantage of the Inner Sphere? Because of that, Clans couldn't hold it.
Clanboy: Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: That's stretching it, but I'll buy it. What about supply lines? It's a year to Clan space and back, whereas the IS could bring material to the front easier. Therefore, the IS could hold the Clans.
Clanboy: Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: That's... completely illogical. What if the IS applied attrition based warfare?
Clanboy: Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: ... Screw this, I'm out.
Clanboy: I WIN!

Now, I have a challenge to the Clanboys. We IS-sy Fits have been giving our reasons as to why the Clans could never hold the entire IS. Now, please give us a scenario whereby the Clans _COULD_ hold the entire IS. I have given my numbers above, if you would like to use different numbers, please keep them within reason as much as possible, I used Sarna and Google to guesstimate my numbers (I refuse to go through the entire army list of each House and Clan and account for every Mech and vehicle in their armed forces, WAY too much time for me, so what I did was I took the basic structure and used basic multiplication), so I suggest you use the same. Please account for the following factors:

-Raw numerical advantage: According to my above numbers, the IS holds roughly a 5:1 advantage over the Clans in terms of military and 6000:1 advantage in terms of raw population. Those are steep odds for anyone.
-Inner Sphere tactics/Total Warfare: Historically, the Clans react poorly to these actions as they view attacks on supply lines and roadside bombings wasteful. How will the Clans negate this?
-Information Warfare: Whereas the Clans (on the surface at least) seem to be very upfront about their forces, the Inner Sphere can and will resort to underhanded tactics and subterfuge to ensure advantage. How will the Clans combat this?
-Problems of unity: We all know the Inner Sphere cannot create a legitimate team to save its own hide; too much bad blood exists between the Houses due to centuries of politics. The Clans, as well, have these problems in the Warden/Crusader division. How will these divisions affect the overall Clan warfare effectiveness?
-Bidding: The practice of bidding was designed to prevent unnecessary waste among the Clans. The Inner Sphere does, eventually, learn how to manipulate this practice to their advantage. Will you keep the bidding process? If not, how do you keep waste to a minimum?
-Zellbrigen: The rules of zellbrigen are a fickle and cruel mistress when your enemy decides to not follow them, and because the sibkos teach the process so fervently, it appears to have created a tunnel-vision mindset among some Clans: I can only fight this enemy until he's dead. I can't use physical attacks ever. If the enemy starts using these tactics, how will the Clans react?
-Population control: How will the Clans control the population? Nuclear strikes from space? Men on the ground? Forget about the population and move on to the next planet?

Please address how the Clans will address these issues and lay out how, in your mind, the Clans can fight for, obtain, and hold the entire Inner Sphere. After this has been laid out, we'll talk. I'll wait.

[Freeride Forever]

Vodkavaiator, on 23 October 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

I think it is rather clear neither the Clans nor Inner Sphere Great Houses are exactly the good guys. (Hell if anything I would argue in general they are both the "bad guys" considering they essentially try to constantly start wars where the average person is going to suffer, mostly for selfish reasons or insane political/religious/cultural beliefs).

But to claim that the Clans simply leave people their own devices in peace is about as bad as saying that the Inner Sphere are heroes of the Battletech Universe. I think it is a shame that we always have to return to making one side out to be better than the other. I mean objectively there are aspects of the Inner Sphere that are very bad, but I don't exactly relish the thought of being a civilian in Clan controlled space either.

Both sides of the argument could easily start quoting incidents of ********, murder or various other crimes against humanity that were performed.

This is what I thought was the nature of BT. I don't know that much about the BT story but from what little I've read to try to get a grasp on it, it seems that the goal of the self imposed SLDF exile was to save the IS from the anticipated devastation that would come if they stayed having lacked the ability to restore it to its near utopian status at the time, but returning to do it when they had built up the capacity to succeed.

The problem then eventually becomes, as the population grows & people will be people, that everyone wants what they want & that is not always the same thing. So the original goal becomes lost amongst people hell bent on things that don't really matter, like honor, status, glory & all that dumb ******** that is rarely ever remembered by anyone for any length of time (since it has little to no value to anyone except the egotist), rather than just living life & having a good time while the time is there to live.

The way I've seen things so far is as Vodkavaiator stated. Most of the factions on either side are a bunch of dicks. Power hungry monarchs in the IS & blood thirsty warmongers in the Clans. The only ones that really seem to be interested in the original, fundamental goal that any of the fighting was supposed to be about are the FRR on the IS side (the only group resembling a democracy) & the Wardens on the Clan side. Most notably clan Wolf, having only become a Crusader (AFAIK) to save the people of the IS from the suspected tyranny of the other Crusaders. The way I see it, the Crusaders are really only fighting for the sake of fighting, don't give a **** about the big picture & are basically fucktarded. The Wardens are where the intelligence really lies & in all of BT to try to assign a "good" or "bad" title to anyone, I'd have to call the good guys the ones that only fight in an effort to restore peace, rather than to gain power for power's sake or to fight for fighting's sake.

For whether or not the Clans could hold the Inner Sphere (holding implies it was successfully taken), not knowing much about the net brute force capacities of one or the other I would have to say that it probably comes down to a matter of which Clan(s) end up with the power. It sounds like Clan Wolf is considered to be the strongest candidate & in that case I would think it very likely that the ultimate goal could be reached. The possibilities of rebellions are handled by the historical facts that civil wars & rebellions usually only tend to occur when people are **** on to the point where death is better than not doing anything about it. If the people are better off than they were before then what reason could they come up with to want to fight besides for the sake of fighting, or for the sake of gaining power? If a peaceful Clan took the IS, I would put the greatest risk to the maintenance of peace on one of the pencil dicked Crusader groups that need non-stop combat fueled ego boosts before I'd worry about a rebellion from the contented IS populace.

Edited by Freeride Forever, 23 October 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Ansel, on 22 October 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Keep in mind that guerrilla warfare only works when your fighters can actualy see and hurt the enemy forces.

Citizens of the IS wouldn't be able to "rebel" in any case anyway if the clans controlled the space around the planet.

What would they do even if they did arm themselvs, shoot up at the sky and hope a bullet makes it into orbit breaks through the warship hull and killes everyone inside.

Word of Blake found ways to kill numerous amounts of Clan Warships with ground based weapons. Then there are aerospace. And what are they gonna eat, drink, etc? How long can they stay out there? There are 2000 inhabited planets, how many Warships do the Clans have?I think they number in something like the dozens.

Do the Clans have anything like 2000 Warships?

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 October 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[Nakuru]

Grey Black, on 23 October 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

-Raw numerical advantage: According to my above numbers, the IS holds roughly a 5:1 advantage over the Clans in terms of military and 6000:1 advantage in terms of raw population. Those are steep odds for anyone.
-Inner Sphere tactics/Total Warfare: Historically, the Clans react poorly to these actions as they view attacks on supply lines and roadside bombings wasteful. How will the Clans negate this?
-Information Warfare: Whereas the Clans (on the surface at least) seem to be very upfront about their forces, the Inner Sphere can and will resort to underhanded tactics and subterfuge to ensure advantage. How will the Clans combat this?
-Problems of unity: We all know the Inner Sphere cannot create a legitimate team to save its own hide; too much bad blood exists between the Houses due to centuries of politics. The Clans, as well, have these problems in the Warden/Crusader division. How will these divisions affect the overall Clan warfare effectiveness?
-Bidding: The practice of bidding was designed to prevent unnecessary waste among the Clans. The Inner Sphere does, eventually, learn how to manipulate this practice to their advantage. Will you keep the bidding process? If not, how do you keep waste to a minimum?
-Zellbrigen: The rules of zellbrigen are a fickle and cruel mistress when your enemy decides to not follow them, and because the sibkos teach the process so fervently, it appears to have created a tunnel-vision mindset among some Clans: I can only fight this enemy until he's dead. I can't use physical attacks ever. If the enemy starts using these tactics, how will the Clans react?
-Population control: How will the Clans control the population? Nuclear strikes from space? Men on the ground? Forget about the population and move on to the next planet?

Raw numerical advantage: To use that as an argument in Battletech/Mechwarrior is to forget how easily any of the Houses hold onto the worlds they conquer from their enemies under any circumstances and ignore the fact that Battletech itself ignores this statistic. Total population tends to not matter within the confines of Battletech, so using it in this argument is pointless. And if you're going to use this for the IS vs Clan argument, you also need to consider it for the conflicts between the Successor States as well. It gets tricky and messy, and some of the difficulties spread from your final point.
Inner Sphere tactics/Total Warfare: There are many ways of fighting wars without striking at supply lines and roadside bombs as well. A skilled Clan tactician can take into account Inner Sphere tactics and minimize losses to this, and using this as an argument assumes that this tactic is all it takes to win a war. Plus, if the Inner Sphere attacks supply lines, then wouldn't it be an ***** commander to not adapt by sending defenders to escort their shipments if this tactic is being used?

Information Warfare: You forget that the Clans use more than one method of deploying forces. The Clans can choose to bid their forces, where they openly announce what they are using. Or they can invoke/request safcon, in which no one is required to declare the forces that either side is using. This means that each side can be just as blind as the other as to what forces are fielded. Furthermore, the Clans aren't completely opposed to using underhanded tactics as long as they keep it within their warrior code and will fight as warriors on equal ground, and even then, there are some who have no limits to how far they will go. (Example: Clan Wolf's "defeat" by the Jade Falcons during the Great Refusal) Besides, that's also assuming that the Clans have no intelligence networks. They, in fact, do.
Problems of Unity: The main argument of this thread is whether the Clans could hold the IS. If one of the Clans were to become declared IlClan, ideally, the rest of the Clans would fall in line and declare loyalty. Realistically, this would actually be more complex than that, but because of the fragmented nature of the Inner Sphere already, it's more of a matter of keeping the Sphere unified than it is the Clans holding onto it.

Bidding: A smart Clan commander wouldn't trust the IS commanders very much, would he/she? A smart one would remember what happened to the Smoke Jaguars at Luthien and keep that in mind when bidding, if they were to use it. As I said before, though, the Clans can also request/invoke safcon, which somewhat removes the advantage the IS has through the use of deceit. In this case, neither Clan nor IS is expected to declare their forces, which leaves each side just as blind as the other. The Clans don't see bidding as necessary, just preferred, and they are willing to use safcon.

Zellbrigen: The Clans started to rethink their use of Zellbrigen after their defeat at Tukayyid, and some never completely adhered to its rules strictly. Furthermore, if an enemy warrior openly and completely breaks the rules of Zellbrigen, the commander of the Clan forces in the conflict can declare the rules of engagement broken and discard it completely for the remainder of the battle. Not to mention this one particular rule of Zellbrigen:

A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.

Which means that a Clan unit can actually openly defy Zellbrigen when engaging the Inner Sphere. Most Clan warriors choose to still follow it even when fighting the IS, but they are allowed, without penalty, to break it willingly.

Population Control: The Clans actually frequently practiced simply conquering the planets military and ignoring the civilians to move on to the next. Garrison units were sent instead to defend the conquered world, and some of the citizens may be taken as isorla, but much of the populations were ignored upon conquest. Besides, using this argument, you also need to consider the same thing with the Successor States conquering one another's worlds, at which point you can see that Battletech actually frequently ignores the complexities of population control unless they need it to advance a specific plot point, and...well, play MechWarrior 2: Mercenaries, and you'll get the idea. It basically feels like most of the populations are willing to live under anyone at anytime unless someone is actively shooting them, and once the gun is put down, they're willing to serve under them again.

[PaintedWolf]

Ashla Mason, on 23 October 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

First, the populace would be assessed and then broken down into castes based on their apptitudes. This would probably be fairly simple, since most people would already have naturally gravitated to positions that they work best in. Ironically, the people who tend to struggle to find work and the homeless would actually be better off since they would be placed into the labor caste and recieve the various necessities of life that they couldn't under a more traditional capitalist society.

How about getting trillions of people to accept a new "caste-system" is not so simple?

[Ashla Mason]

PaintedWolf, on 23 October 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

How about getting trillions of people to accept a new "caste-system" is not so simple?

It's less hard then you might think. People would for the most part maintain there existent jobs but would be recognized as being laborer, scientist, merchant or technician.

Ironically, doing so would probably afford a lot of people (who wouldn't have been able to for various reasons) upward mobility.

[IceSerpent]

Vodkavaiator, on 23 October 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Sweet!

Then we can already end this thread by saying that according to the cannon, official Battletech sources the Clan invasion failed and they could thus not hold control of the Inner Sphere. You know considering that the entire premiss of this thread is a "What if" scenario...

Your logic is flawed - a reasonable what-if scenario implies that some event has a different, but still realistic outcome. The idea that a faction would devise a scheme that would unite them, stage a major invasion for that specific purpose, and after going through all that trouble suddenly say "you know, we kind of decided that we do not want to be united after all" is not very realistic, not to mention that it's decidedly out of character for the Clans to break the agreement for no apparent reason.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Grey Black, on 23 October 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Something i realize looking back over the thread is the pattern seems to be this:

IS player (now called an IS-sy Fit): Clans can't hold the Inner Sphere because of the culture they fight by.
Clan player (now called a Clanboy): Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: Perhaps. But what about the numerical advantage of the Inner Sphere? Because of that, Clans couldn't hold it.
Clanboy: Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: That's stretching it, but I'll buy it. What about supply lines? It's a year to Clan space and back, whereas the IS could bring material to the front easier. Therefore, the IS could hold the Clans.
Clanboy: Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: That's... completely illogical. What if the IS applied attrition based warfare?
Clanboy: Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: ... Screw this, I'm out.
Clanboy: I WIN!

I wouldnt really say either IS players or Clan have thrown much of a hissy fit. However you nailed the clan mentality perfectly.