220 replies to this topic

[Nohj]

I think had they from the start purged each world of the "Freebirths" and instated a eugenics program much like their own, they would be able to more easliy control each worlds population.

[Vodkavaiator]

Ashla Mason, on 22 October 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

It's actually not as hard as you seem to think it is, since a lot of planets are barely inhabitable and require supplies to be shipped in or specialized facilities to provide the basic requisites of life (like say... food).

Is there any way to quantify " a lot"?

Not trying to be silly here but it would be rather useful to know what percentage(or number) of planets fit the conditions you list.

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Also: you do know that the clans would be just as likely (in the event of the clans having to root the insurgents out) to transfer loyalist populace to the planet?

Interesting in one way, but I still don't see how this helps the clans to catch up to the population gap, since they are just shuffling around what they already have.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 22 October 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Vodkavaiator, on 22 October 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

It should be or rather needs to be for the Clan's to have chance of success, that is the point.

A slow and drawn out war is exactly what the IS would strategically desire. It gives them more time to mass troops, produce more equipment and to resolve any diplomatic issues to unite and fight off the clans.

That's debatable. FedCom and Combine only have a few places that produce mechs or spaceships and take longer than Clans to train a warrior, so slowing down might be more beneficial to Clans than to their IS opponents - it's easier to increase production when you already have everything figured out and the only bottleneck is resources (which you have just taken by conquest), than to reverse-engineer new equipment, figure out how to build factories, then build them and only then start producing that equipment.

[Vodkavaiator]

Considering the IS has a much larger population base to select soldiers from, I don't think how quickly they train troops is necessarily an important factor.

Strictly speaking they don't need to reverse-engineer too much new equipment, considering the Russian tactic of spamming cheap/efficient equipment in high enough numbers tends to work rather well. (When you are numerically superior)

Also, again, even if the IS has only a few places that produce mechs you would still need to compare the overall production of both sides. It could very well be that IS for its size produces rather poorly but still has a higher rate of production than the clans. Finally, mechs and Spaceships are not the only useful tools of war.

--------------------------------------------

Regardless, I think you are underestimating the challenges of supporting a war logistically and especially in regards to production if you think that the a numerically inferior force should be trying to fight a drawn out conventional war.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 22 October 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Ashla Mason]

dal10, on 22 October 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

you aren't getting my point. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DRIVE THEM OFF YOURSELVES. you tie up enough garrison troops, it weakens their ability to fight any incursion by the IS. The clans do not have enough people. I would be impressed if they consisted of even 100 million people. 100 million vs 2 trillion. 20,000 spheroids per clan member. 5% of that entire number fighting back is still 1000 to one.

IS IT POST WITH CAPS SO THAT OUR POINTS CARRY MORE WEIGHT TIME? I LOVE POST WITH CAPS SO THAT OUR POINTS CARRY MORE WEIGHT TIME!

SO HERE WE GO!

WHEN GHENGIS KHAN RODE OUT OF WHAT WE NOW CALL MONGOLIA, HE HAD AT HIS DISPOSAL PERHAPS 40K TROOPS AND PROCEDED TO LAY WASTE TO ANYTHING THAT CHALLENGED HIM IN NORTHERN CHINA. AFTER HE GOT DONE TAKING THEM APART, HE WENT WEST AND WELL, LET ME JUST SHOW YOU:



A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS ISN'T IT? HE TOOK AND HELD THAT WITH ALL OF ABOUT 40K GUYS. HELL, HIS SONS ACTUALLY EXPANDED IT EVEN FURTHER.


WOW, SHOULD HAVE JUST RUN WITH THIS ONE FROM THE START, WHAT WITH IT BEING ANIMATED AND ALL.

POINT IS, IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO HOLD LARGE SWATHES OF TERRITORY WITH COMPARATIVELY SMALL NUMBERS OF TROOPS.

BTW, THE CLANS WERE INSPIRED BY THE MONGOL EMPIRE.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Ashla Mason, on 22 October 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

POINT IS, IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO HOLD LARGE SWATHES OF TERRITORY WITH COMPARATIVELY SMALL NUMBERS OF TROOPS.

Mongolians still control China? Korea? Middle East? Eastern Europe? ah guess my history books were off...

[dal10]

Ashla Mason, on 22 October 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

IS IT POST WITH CAPS SO THAT OUR POINTS CARRY MORE WEIGHT TIME? I LOVE POST WITH CAPS SO THAT OUR POINTS CARRY MORE WEIGHT TIME!

SO HERE WE GO!

WHEN GHENGIS KHAN RODE OUT OF WHAT WE NOW CALL MONGOLIA, HE HAD AT HIS DISPOSAL PERHAPS 40K TROOPS AND PROCEDED TO LAY WASTE TO ANYTHING THAT CHALLENGED HIM IN NORTHERN CHINA. AFTER HE GOT DONE TAKING THEM APART, HE WENT WEST AND WELL, LET ME JUST SHOW YOU:



A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS ISN'T IT? HE TOOK AND HELD THAT WITH ALL OF ABOUT 40K GUYS. HELL, HIS SONS ACTUALLY EXPANDED IT EVEN FURTHER.


WOW, SHOULD HAVE JUST RUN WITH THIS ONE FROM THE START, WHAT WITH IT BEING ANIMATED AND ALL.

POINT IS, IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO HOLD LARGE SWATHES OF TERRITORY WITH COMPARATIVELY SMALL NUMBERS OF TROOPS.

BTW, THE CLANS WERE INSPIRED BY THE MONGOL EMPIRE.

this is 100% false, they did not take it with just 40k troops. their horde was INITIALLY that small. Every time a city gave up without a fight he took half the population, all the men were conscripted to his army, the women and children to the armies backtrain.

[Ashla Mason]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 22 October 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Mongolians still control China? Korea? Middle East? Eastern Europe? ah guess my history books were off...

The reasons for why asia isn't reffered to as "Mongolia" are many, but I'm willing to bet even money that they weren't at any point chased away by indignant peasants.

[Timuroslav]

When the Xiongnu (Shi ong new) or 'Mongols' finally, conquered China they had to appease the population so they wouldn't up-rise. The local, or ethnic, or Han, Chinese would not take for a Foreigner sitting on the Throne of the Son of Heaven. The Mandate of Heaven would be their calling card, and the foreign kings would be caste out, or just assimilated into the Chinese population.
You saying the Clans were based on the Xiongnu couldn't be more accurate because the indigenous Xiongnu ended up being assimilated by the Han Chinese.
-the difference?
The Mongols knew they could never suppress the Chinese Han which outnumbered them dramatically, so instead of brute force which is what Ashla prefers..
Aimed to be like and befriend the local populace, after all they constantly raided them because they loved their goods, mainly the impenetrable silk armor.
-They ended up assimilating just like Clan Snow Raven and Clan Ghost Bear not only because they were outnumbered but Chinese Technology was catching up and with Chinese Steel and the Earthen Walls they actually repelled their foreign rulers.
You think that if you're Draconian enough that the world will bend to your will, but in reality every action has a consequence.

Oh, and by saying we'll just create more soldiers, is an invalid argument because fetus, take months to grow, and then you have children to train.<- Years Where the I.S. could just go recruiting or buy Experienced Mercenaries, which use every trick in the book. Clan warfare is based off of honorable Duelings. You honestly, think the I.S. is going to fight fair?

You're also assuming that the oppressed Clan castes don't have their own opinions. Like I said earlier the only thing stopping the Merchant Class was their wealth, and the warrior class.

Saying they can just jump resources and surround every planet is also a huge misconception because then your'e taking away frontline soldiers.

Saying using force and guassing planets will keep them in line, does stop rebellion but it's a scorched Earth Tactic that hurts the clans who are in Dire need of an Increase of population.

In summary, you've stated these counter argument, again, and again, and again, but Where is the Rest of your evidence that this works,
Right now you're using What if Scenarios, Where's the Evidence of all these Tactics working?
There's a reason why a lot of Draconian societies die out. People don't like Control, and if your plan is to kill all?
Then you've destroyed the heart of the Clan systems which was the preservation of all that is Humanity, basically you've spat in the Face of Kerensky.
please go Read the lore.

My evidence is on the table. By the way the idea that Clan tech is fragile, Consider Physics, When a star is first formed the heavy metals don't travel far from the sun, as a result the stronger Heavier metals form Terra planets, most planets are in fact made of hydrogen because Hydrogen is the most abundant resource in ANY galaxy. Also Battletech lore does state the downsides of Clan Tech I know it did in the MechWarrior 4 Manuel.

Actually, I'm somewhat impressed, you're the first Clanner to put semi credible evidence on the forum.

By the way you didn't Debunk my Stalingrad Argument.
I know the Clans are super human but I'm pretty sure if 1000 people tackled one Clan warrior, that he'd be crushed under the weight regardless of the I.S. populace being warriors or not. That not just a little disadvantage that's an ASTRONOMICAL disadvantage.

Edited by Timuroslav, 22 October 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[Ashla Mason]

dal10, on 22 October 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

this is 100% false, they did not take it with just 40k troops. their horde was INITIALLY that small. Every time a city gave up without a fight he took half the population, all the men were conscripted to his army, the women and children to the armies backtrain.

So, you're saying that he addopted people from conquered territory into his nation and army.

Please, continue.

[Ashla Mason]

Timurslav: I'm still waiting for examples of how insurgents have successfully driven away clan conquerers.

[Timuroslav]

Ashla Mason, on 22 October 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Timurslav: I'm still waiting for examples of how insurgents have successfully driven away clan conquerers.

I want evidence you've stated your what if Scenarios. My evidence is on the table. My insurgent Argument is on the Stalingrad page. Also the American Revolution could be considered an Insurgent uprising. Hell even Cinco De Mayo is a similar event.

I want your evidence that Suppression works on the long run.
Don't give me more What If Scenarios

Edited by Timuroslav, 22 October 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[ShotgunWillie]

IceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Yep, it has been done, and after Hiroshima and Nagasaki Japanese were not very eager to continue the fight - laying to waste major civilian areas tends to have a very negative impact on the morale.

Notice, though, that it took the second nuke to get the Japanese to surrender. Even then, the Japanese didn't go "Oh $#!*!!! They have more of them!!!" The same day the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki (August 9, 1945), the Soviet Union declared war on Japan. Regarding the surrender of the Japanese, Emperor Hirohito ordered his advisor, Kōichi Kido to "quickly control the situation ... because the Soviet Union has declared war against us.", and it is theorized by many that the Soviet's declaration of war on Japan had more to do with their surrender than did the bombs.

Wiping out large civilian populations is not a guaranteed way to quell insurrection.

[dal10]

Ashla Mason, on 22 October 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

So, you're saying that he addopted people from conquered territory into his nation and army.

Please, continue.

The number of troops mustered by the Mongols is the subject of some scholarly debate,[98] but was at least 105,000 in 1206.[99] The Mongol military organization was simple but effective, based on the decimal system. The army was built up from squads of ten men each, called an arbat; ten arbats constituted a company of one hundred, called a zuut; ten zuuts made a regiment of one thousand called myanghan and ten myanghans would then constitute a division of ten thousand (tumen). The Mongols were most famous for their horse archers, but troops armed with lances were equally skilled, and the Mongols recruited other military talents from the cities they conquered. With experienced Chinese engineers and bombardier corps who were experts in building trebuchets, Xuanfeng catapults and other machines, the Mongols could lay siege to fortified positions, sometimes building machinery on the spot using available local resources.

Quoted directly from wikipedia.

Edited by dal10, 22 October 2012 - 07:32 PM.

[Rhent]

No, clanner view on tactics in combat is one of distaste. The inner sphere forces would run successful insurgent campaigns and bleed the clans dry. Look at how the Taliban (USSR) and the Vietcong (US) both successfully took on and removed world super powers with vastly superior weaponry using tactics.

The clan would rather run face first into an AC/20 than turn tail and avoid an ambush.

[Ashla Mason]

Timuroslav, on 22 October 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

I want evidence you've stated your what if Scenarios. My evidence is on the table.

2 things. First, I'm not trying to be hostile about this (debating battletech is rather fun), but people have been rattling this chain about how the clans could be driven off by guerrilla war and I'd like to see them produce an example of this actually occuring since they're convinced that it'll happen; to the best off my knowledge (which I'll freely admit isn't perfect) it hasn't.

The other part of this is that this entire discussion is premised on whether or not it could happen. My oppinion is that it would be difficult, but not quite impossible if an ilclan was able to shore up it's defences long enough to upgrade it's local manufacturing capabilites and bring additional forces from clan space. Against such an effort the best response that the Inner shere could counter with would be a mass espionage campaign, actively doing everything they could to slow the build up of a clan juggernaught.

[Ashla Mason]

dal10, on 22 October 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

The number of troops mustered by the Mongols is the subject of some scholarly debate,[98] but was at least 105,000 in 1206.[99] The Mongol military organization was simple but effective, based on the decimal system. The army was built up from squads of ten men each, called an arbat; ten arbats constituted a company of one hundred, called a zuut; ten zuuts made a regiment of one thousand called myanghan and ten myanghans would then constitute a division of ten thousand (tumen). The Mongols were most famous for their horse archers, but troops armed with lances were equally skilled, and the Mongols recruited other military talents from the cities they conquered. With experienced Chinese engineers and bombardier corps who were experts in building trebuchets, Xuanfeng catapults and other machines, the Mongols could lay siege to fortified positions, sometimes building machinery on the spot using available local resources.

Quoted directly from wikipedia.

So how is this different from the clan method of building second line galaxies?

[Timuroslav]

I am saying they couldn't based off of what History says, a person is capable of doing. That is the essence of the could condition. Debunking the lack of evidence of that working, makes a certain action not possible. Making the Could question a Can't answer.
But you're right let's use what if scenarios..

Super engineered Banana men can take over the Inner Sphere because they can repair and generate people and Mechs outta candy, and physics and logisitcs don't apply to them.
^
See how ridiculous that Scenario sounds?
Having the last word doesn't mean you win, or are smart; it just makes you look stubborn. (Which I am)

Since this is a COULD IT HAPPEN question, I've used my answer to say logisitcally, No it couldn't. Don't get me Wrong I like a lot of Clans.
But using Logic in a 'Could' Argument just makes sense to me.

But hey to counter your logic, I'll invent my own Logic the Inner sphere has invulnerable Candy men that can generate metal and predict the enemies movements. Or we can just constantly spin the Argument so you(Ashla ) never have to answer our questions.

OH, and those Candymen Ride Unicorns which are powered by the Hatred of man, while shooting Rainbows.

Edited by Timuroslav, 22 October 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[Ashla Mason]

I think that this entire discussion would be helped if the OP could clarify the width and breadth of the question. Like, I'm trying to come up with a logical scenario in which this could work (call it the mythbusters method) while remaining true to the setting.

So if you were to ask me "could the clans sieze the inner sphere" I would reply yes. If you were to ask me "could they do it in by 3056?"I would point and laugh at you.

[IceSerpent]

ShotgunWillie, on 22 October 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Notice, though, that it took the second nuke to get the Japanese to surrender. Even then, the Japanese didn't go "Oh $#!*!!! They have more of them!!!" The same day the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki (August 9, 1945), the Soviet Union declared war on Japan. Regarding the surrender of the Japanese, Emperor Hirohito ordered his advisor, Kōichi Kido to "quickly control the situation ... because the Soviet Union has declared war against us.", and it is theorized by many that the Soviet's declaration of war on Japan had more to do with their surrender than did the bombs.

It was a way to save face for Hirohito - suing for peace because another major power entered the war on your enemies' side comes across as prudent, while doing that because your current opponent is kicking your butt while you were the one who started the war with that opponent to begin with is basically like saying "we were dumb and grossly underestimated the opposition" - not a cool thing to admit for the emperor.
Besides, these days it's not very popular to say "nuking other folks is barbaric, but very effective" - doesn't fit well with proclamations of us being humane and civilized and all that.

Quote

Wiping out large civilian populations is not a guaranteed way to quell insurrection.

Technically speaking, it is guaranteed - if you keep wiping them out, eventually there will be no population left at all and the problem will solve itself so to speak.

Rhent, on 22 October 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

No, clanner view on tactics in combat is one of distaste. The inner sphere forces would run successful insurgent campaigns and bleed the clans dry. Look at how the Taliban (USSR) and the Vietcong (US) both successfully took on and removed world super powers with vastly superior weaponry using tactics.

So, Taliban took on USSR with a lot of help from US and Vietcong took on US with a lot of help from USSR and China. Please tell us how this is relevant to hypothetical rebellion in the middle of Clan space - where would all that external help come from and how it would be delivered?