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Could Clans ever Hold the Inner Sphere?


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#61 tankermottind

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:30 PM

Oh wow, now you're going to try to make completely speculative assumptions about what I may or may not have done in the tabletop game?

...I can't even argue with this, because your latest post isn't even an argument, it's a load of boasting and bluster without any actual content or even acknowledgement of all of the numerous points I raised.

You ignored, and continue to ignore, the Clans' massive numerical inferiority, their lopsided military structure, their poor doctrine, obsession with personal honor at the expense of their strategic goals, and the massive difficulty and complexity of conquering a region as large as even one Successor State and integrating it into the conquering state. You handwave aside my points about genetic diversity (based on actual science and observation of what happens to endangered species that lose too much diversity and closed human genetic groups that do not allow new blood in) with some blather about what the Clansmen may have thought about it. I don't particularly care what they thought about it, because obviously they weren't thinking with any actual understanding of the matter; the principles of eugenics they use were discredited decades ago.

This isn't even advanced stuff, it's counter-insurgency, warfighting, and biology 101. And the Clains fail all of it.

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If you truly understood why the society developed as it did (in the fiction), you might just "get it" and come over to the side of the Light

With absurdity like this, you have no right to call me a fanboy. Just...wow. All that's missing is a gratuitous "freebirth" thrown in somewhere.

#62 Haroldwolf

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:39 PM

View PostPaintedWolf, on 17 October 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Even if they had taken Earth, given the low numbers of Clanners vs Spheroids, could Clans ever really hope to hold all that ground, let alone the rest of the entire Inner Sphere?

I mean wouldn't any attempt to actually try and impose their Caste System on regular Inner Sphere folks create a huge backlash?

Not a chance. Only a few clans were making progress and the losses were starting to mount up. In a war of attrition the Clans would be big losers.

#63 Timuroslav

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:02 PM

View PostGremlich Johns, on 21 October 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:


You merely prove my point about IS-oriented players.

You term them as "idiotic internacine conflicts" because you cannot comprehend the environments which led to that societies creation, having nothing in your own life to gauge it by. That and perhaps because you are really only a video-game warrior. Your mis-perception has perhaps also been developed by frequent failures against more skilled Clan-oriented players who lorded their skill over you simply by besting you. If you truly understood why the society developed as it did (in the fiction), you might just "get it" and come over to the side of the Light. The eugenics program also had nothing to do with their Potential,Tactics, etc. it was just a way, in the long vision, to keep healthy genes available and to ensure survival of the population - which, as you should know, developed in extreme conditions. Again, some extrapolation is needed. Put yourself in a Clansman's boots - You cannot make a cogent argument until you do. The potential of the Clans writ large is largely untapped, constrained only by the current fiction that is canon.




the quote you quoted was not my quote

That whole type was not even a rebuttal. You pretty much, just called him ignorant, and said that real life example do not relate to fiction. The fact that Battle Tech lore relates to history, especially Feudalism(rule by powerful military governors and nobles), is a relevant argument. People are not machines and they do react to minor details like Quartering troops, lack of numbers hostility to government control and taxes. This can be seen in the History of Feudal Japan, the History of the Birth of U.S.A. and even the history of China. If you anger the populace, they can and will rebel. Hence, the murder of Shogun Oda Nobunga, the American Revolution, and the Taipei (Thai pay, ya it sounds odd but it's right) and Qin(it's said Chin, trust me on this one) Rebellions. Tankermottind's argument uses historical examples to reveal plot-holes and technicallities to prove his point. Calling it a work of fiction and stating that it does not relate to reality, when realistically Battle Tech has very clairvoyant ties to history is a moot point.

To prove this I will provide one Example of history relating to Battletech:
Eugenics->Spartans->Clanners->Inbreeding+Draconian society+Societal Rigidity+Arrogance = Collapse
Starbucks+Over expansion/Over extension= Commercial Implosion

*Stalingrad->Russian conscripts poorly armed some not armed-> outnumbered and out supplied the Germans->Both Elite infantry wiped out->Massive morale loss for the superior Army-> Change in the War* Just because you have superior technology does not mean you can win a war of attrition without a powerful healthy mindset. This relates to my Argument that the Inner sphere if backed against the wall, driven by pure rage for the clan system could, because of their united will power and threatened life style would destroy their superior oppressors. They would get the confidence to rebel from their brethren and their local ties. Besides the Merchant class would do all it could to reach around the Clan's philosophies for some extra cash.

Also calling him a Fanboy is a low blow and shows stuborness and lack of critical thinking, that DOES NOT address the discussion.

Sir you are verbally attacking the typist not his argument. Please try again.

Edited by Timuroslav, 21 October 2012 - 05:34 PM.


#64 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:30 PM

View PostTimuroslav, on 21 October 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Also calling him a Fanboy is a low blow and shows stuborness and lack of critical thinking, that DOES NOT address the discussion.

Sir you are verbally attacking the typist not his argument. Please try again.


His discussion of the matter at hand I find stubborn and possessed of a lack of critical thinking - it is fiction after all. And I said/typed nothing regarding him and TT game - tis he who made assumptions. His point of view is dictated solely from an IS perspective and not from an examination of the other side of the equation - not that he would have considered an alternative point of view. He could have taken the high road and thought "Pshaw, tis only a clanner, what does he know about reality" and not posted. Sadly, he did not.

And yes, attacking the typist. because what you quoted earlier was not mine. Unless you meant his argument - which I found unsupportable in a fiction sort of way.

#65 tankermottind

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:46 PM

So just assuming you are an ***** who is not worth talking to is the "high road"? What sense does that make?

Also what is this about "points of view"? I'm just looking at the actual situation in the IS and in the Clans, and the nature of what the Clans are supposed to accomplish and the difficulties facing them. The situation for them is not a good one, to say the least. Drinking Vlad Ward's Kool-Aid is not going to make anyone more informed on the matter.

By the way, I'm still waiting on you to address all those points I raised about numerical disparity, morale, asymmetrical warfare, infrastructure, industry, peacekeeping, etc. Don't think I've forgotten them.

#66 PaintedWolf

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:08 PM

Oh so I see. The Clans are supposed to be able to kill ENDLESS AMOUNTS of IS citizens, and take over infinite amounts of planets and we are supposed to sit there and do nothing. **** them! I say we use Germs, Chemicals AND Nukes! If ALL of humanity goes at the end it HAS to GO!

I guarantee, now, it will end the way Interstellar Players 2 begins, with Cyberneic Armies leading the charge on Clan Homeworlds with Nukes in the background, raising the IS flags as the Mushroom Clouds rise. Every single Clanner will go!


Edited by PaintedWolf, 21 October 2012 - 07:34 PM.


#67 PaintedWolf

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:47 PM

I hope they are ready to deal with an organization far more united then the First or Second Star League ever was.

#68 Aaron DeChavilier

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:29 AM

View Posttankermottind, on 21 October 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

You ignored, and continue to ignore, the Clans' massive numerical inferiority, their lopsided military structure, their poor doctrine, obsession with personal honor at the expense of their strategic goals, and the massive difficulty and complexity of conquering a region as large as even one Successor State and integrating it into the conquering state. You handwave aside my points about genetic diversity (based on actual science and observation of what happens to endangered species that lose too much diversity and closed human genetic groups that do not allow new blood in) with some blather about what the Clansmen may have thought about it. I don't particularly care what they thought about it, because obviously they weren't thinking with any actual understanding of the matter; the principles of eugenics they use were discredited decades ago.

<sarcasm>
it's cause you're like a democrat or somethin'
</sarcasm>
there's not point in arguing based on objective assessments with clan players, it makes them uncomfortable. They don't even recognize the in-universe example of Aleksandr Kerensky's march from the Rims World to Terra during the fall of the first SLDF. That march took 13 years, the entire SLDF vs just the Rims World and no great house intervening!

#69 IceSerpent

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:38 AM

View Posttankermottind, on 21 October 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

You ignored, and continue to ignore, the Clans' massive numerical inferiority, their lopsided military structure, their poor doctrine, obsession with personal honor at the expense of their strategic goals, and the massive difficulty and complexity of conquering a region as large as even one Successor State and integrating it into the conquering state. You handwave aside my points about genetic diversity (based on actual science and observation of what happens to endangered species that lose too much diversity and closed human genetic groups that do not allow new blood in) with some blather about what the Clansmen may have thought about it. I don't particularly care what they thought about it, because obviously they weren't thinking with any actual understanding of the matter; the principles of eugenics they use were discredited decades ago.


1. A society with advanced genetic program in place can easily "fix" numerical inferiority within a single generation - it's simply a matter of making more embryos.

2. Assuming that poor doctrine, obsession with personal honor, etc. refer to zellbrigen, it's a moot point because zell stops being in effect as soon as anybody on either side violates the rules (which IS warriors love to do). So, it would be a hindrance only until the first salvo fired by IS side.

3. Conquest of IS is not as difficult as you think, because IS is heavily divided and factions constantly fight each other. The good old "divide and conquer" idea fits the situation perfectly. Conquering a single successor state won't be too problematic either, because civilian population is unlikely to be too upset about it - going from feudal society to Clan society doesn't make much difference for an average Joe. Having nobility as "first class citizens" is about the same as having warriors as "first class citizens". In other words, the flag changes, but life goes on.

4. Genetic diversity is not an issue with the program Clans have - inbreeding only applies to close relatives. An initial pool of 800 is more than enough to start (and maintain) a healthy population. We've had quite a number of RL species hunted to a brink of extinction that made a comeback and seem to be doing just fine.

#70 Aaron DeChavilier

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:59 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

3. Conquest of IS is not as difficult as you think, because IS is heavily divided and factions constantly fight each other. The good old "divide and conquer" idea fits the situation perfectly. Conquering a single successor state won't be too problematic either, because civilian population is unlikely to be too upset about it - going from feudal society to Clan society doesn't make much difference for an average Joe. Having nobility as "first class citizens" is about the same as having warriors as "first class citizens". In other words, the flag changes, but life goes on.

wha!? ba!?
300 years of Succession wars? no? that means nothing to you?
Wasn't the point of the Succession wars to defeat the other 4 houses and rule the Inner Sphere? And the First and Second wars were fought when each IS was at the apex of their military capabilities.
Once again, willfully ignoring in-universe counter-examples.

Oh yes and good luck telling the the citizens of the core worlds of each House that 'the flag changes and life goes on.' By your logic the citizens of Wolcott and Luthienwould not have minded if suddenly the Coordinator was deposed and oligarchal foreign invaders took over.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 22 October 2012 - 07:02 AM.


#71 IceSerpent

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:20 AM

View PostAaron DeChavilier, on 22 October 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

wha!? ba!?
300 years of Succession wars? no? that means nothing to you?
Wasn't the point of the Succession wars to defeat the other 4 houses and rule the Inner Sphere? And the First and Second wars were fought when each IS was at the apex of their military capabilities.
Once again, willfully ignoring in-universe counter-examples.


An "every man for himself" battle between 5 equally strong factions can only result in those factions grinding themselves out, which pretty much what happened to IS because of succession wars. A battle between 2 factions, one of which is completely unified (after Terra is taken) and the other is still divided into succession states that are happily fighting each other, is not going to end well for the divided side.

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Oh yes and good luck telling the the citizens of the core worlds of each House that 'the flag changes and life goes on.' By your logic the citizens of Wolcott and Luthienwould not have minded if suddenly the Coordinator was deposed and oligarchal foreign invaders took over.


Why would they mind? Locals didn't mind much when Nova Cats and Ghost Bears took over, and they only minded Smoke Jaguars taking over Turtle Bay until Edo got wiped out. For the most part on worlds conquered by Clans life did go on as usual.

#72 Timuroslav

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:30 AM

The Clans are not united. They fought amongst themselves for first dibs on Attacking the Innersphere. Do you really think that a Warden Clan shares the same dogma as a Crusader Clan? Some of the warden clans did not even want to attack the Innersphere, because of Kerensky's ideology of 'Leaving the Innersphere because he loved it too much to watch it get destroyed.' An example of this is the difference between Clan Jade Falcon, Smoke Jaguar, compared to Clan Ghost Bear and Clan Wolf. Those Clans have very different Methodologies and practices. (opinion) I think people just like clans because they see the words 'Superior Technology and Superior Geners' and they think Winner.

Superior Technology DOES NOT Dictate Military Outcomes

Evidence1
1940's
German Pioneer's were Elite Infantry sent to Stalingrad. They were very skilled Engineers, and demolitionist experts.
They were routed in Stalingrad, by CONSCRIPTS some of them unarmed. Routed=100% casualties
Posted Image

Evidence 2
again 1940's
Chinese Civil war
GoumingDang KMT Chinese Nationalists guided by Chang Kai Shek
Chang Kai Shek's Infantry were equipped with German Infantry rifles, helmets and uniforms, but had American Tank, and Armor.
They still lost to the Chinese Communists who were armed with Rifles, farmers, and some I.E.D.s


Better Equipment only Augments the capabilities of the soldiers

It does not Dictate the Battle or War, and it does NOT Replace Experience

There is NO substitute for Experience or Willpower.

Edited by Timuroslav, 22 October 2012 - 11:35 AM.


#73 Aaron DeChavilier

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:36 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:


An "every man for himself" battle between 5 equally strong factions can only result in those factions grinding themselves out, which pretty much what happened to IS because of succession wars. A battle between 2 factions, one of which is completely unified (after Terra is taken) and the other is still divided into succession states that are happily fighting each other, is not going to end well for the divided side.

Uhm the clans were and are not united. They waste so much time skirmishing among themselves on par with the sword-raids that the Great Houses pull. You also missed the point with my example, which I guess I should have made it clearer. If a Great House at the apex of its military might, which dwarfs a clans combined might, could not take Terra and conquer the Inner Sphere; then the Clans never had a chance. Also to be specific, the First Succession war was a war that pulled out all the stops- we're talking orbital bombardments, nukes, hundreds of battleships fighting it out, a truly apocalyptic scenario. Yet when the dust settled, no House had really gained an upper hand, not even after the Second Succession War which was more of the same did any House gain the upper hand. So what makes you think that a force smaller than a Great House without using orbital bombardment, without using nukes or biological agents could take the IS?

Another critical question: by your thinking, the Word of Blake, 25 years later wouldn't have needed to use NBC attacks or bombardments to bring the Great Houses in line no? They could have just used their Seraph omnimechs and elite infantry right?

You do remember that the SLDF controlled the IS because the Great Houses played ball and contributed forces and diplomacy to it right? That once the Great Houses pulled their support from the first Star League, it collapsed, gee I wonder why.


View PostIceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Why would they mind? Locals didn't mind much when Nova Cats and Ghost Bears took over, and they only minded Smoke Jaguars taking over Turtle Bay until Edo got wiped out. For the most part on worlds conquered by Clans life did go on as usual.

Why would they mind? I dunno maybe has something to do with people like being in the nations they're in. Case in point, a Kuritan citizen may not agree with all the policies of the Coordinator, but he will take up arms to defend his planet if the Davions come a knocking! You sound just as tone deaf and naive as the actual clan characters from the fiction. Want me to keep going with in-universe examples? I'll use one more. From the book Dagger Point. During the Sun Tzu's attempt to reclaim the St. Ives Compact, Victor Davion dispatches the Eridani Light Horse to garrison the planet Milo, a planet only 2 jumps from the Capellan capitol. Upon garrisoning, the Eridani are beset by angry mobs of protesters and a hostile population who don't like having a foreign garrison force on their world. According to you, that book is wrong, and the population would have not cared either way.

explain to a local on Milo how the clans are any different from a Davion -related Merc group when either one is trying to overthrow the local government and put that person under control of a government that is not his choice.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 22 October 2012 - 11:54 AM.


#74 IceSerpent

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostAaron DeChavilier, on 22 October 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Uhm the clans were and are not united.


The whole point of the invasion and conquest of Terra is to unite Clans under ilClan (the Clan that actually takes Terra). Therefore, if Terra is taken, then Clans are united from that point on.

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You also missed the point with my example, which I guess I should have made it clearer. If a Great House at the apex of its military might, which dwarfs a clans combined might, could not take Terra and conquer the Inner Sphere; then the Clans never had a chance.


I didn't miss it - you are just incorrect. A given House at the apex of its military might had to fight 4 (FOUR) other Houses at the apex of their military might, so chances of any single House conquering IS were slim to none.
As soon as CLans become united, their chances of accomplishing this feat increase dramatically. Mostly due to the fact that at this point in time IS is still divided and is nowhere close to re-forming Star League.

Quote

Another critical question: by your thinking, the Word of Blake, 25 years later wouldn't have needed to use NBC attacks or bombardments to bring the Great Houses in line no? They could have just used their Seraph omnimechs and elite infantry right?


Who knows what a bunch of religious fanatics needed or didn't need? For all we know they only needed a few prayers.

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You do remember that the SLDF controlled the IS because the Great Houses played ball and contributed forces and diplomacy to it right?


SLDF = Star League Defense Force. It's an army, not a government - it never controlled anything, let alone all of IS.

Quote

That once the Great Houses pulled their support from the first Star League, it collapsed, gee I wonder why.


Star League collapsed because of Amaris coup, it's not like everybody just decided to "pull their support" out of the blue sky.

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Why would they mind? I dunno maybe has something to do with people like being in the nations they're in. Case in point, a Kuritan citizen may not agree with all the policies of the Coordinator, but he will take up arms to defend his planet if the Davions come a knocking!


I take it that you have some sources to back you up on the idea that DC civilians tend to engage in guerrilla warfare on a regular basis when their worlds are taken by Davions?

Quote

From the book Dagger Point. During the Sun Tzu's attempt to reclaim the St. Ives Compact, Victor Davion dispatches the Eridani Light Horse to garrison the planet Milo, a planet only 2 jumps from the Capellan capitol. Upon garrisoning, the Eridani are beset by angry mobs of protesters and a hostile population who don't like having a foreign garrison force on their world. According to you, that book is wrong, and the population would have not cared either way.


I'll counter that with example from Roar Of Honor, where locals on Toffen didn't mind Ghost Bear invasion at all. Given that CapCon folks are kind of known to be a bit on a fanatical side, I think Milo situation is not the norm for the rest of the IS.

#75 Ansel

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:19 PM

Keep in mind that guerrilla warfare only works when your fighters can actualy see and hurt the enemy forces.

Citizens of the IS wouldn't be able to "rebel" in any case anyway if the clans controlled the space around the planet.

What would they do even if they did arm themselvs, shoot up at the sky and hope a bullet makes it into orbit breaks through the warship hull and killes everyone inside.

I wouldn't even need more than a token force to hold a planet in that situation, if you start an uprising, your city is glassed, keep in mind that you cannot fight back at all in this case as the clan commander would be in space in a warship.

If you start another uprising your children die. How many children would you sacrifice to an enemy you cannot even fight aginst just to "rebel", how long until your neighbors turn you in to my token force for execution so their child dosn't die. Or just kill you themselvs.

If you cannot reach your enemy to fight them you aren't a "guerrilla figher". If your enemy can kill your women and children and remain unmolested in a warship in space how exactly do you "fight back"?

The answer, you don't, and if your neighbor does you turn him in or kill him youself to protect your own children.

#76 Timuroslav

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:24 PM

Ok, a token force here a token force there, Then your whole Armada is depeleted, AND you're not extracting resources and using factories.
So they're camping outside planets because...?
ok, I'll bite you waste time and resources playing Siege warefare with every planet, how long is that gonna last.
By the way, what good are factories if you don't have manual labor to use them, or even use them at all?
What good are planets if you don't extract resources.
That would make their supply chain even worse.
If anything Clanners were about forceful assimilation of the Inner Sphere.
Given the Clans out numbered Army and Resources, they would need to be on best terms with the populace. In order to create Mechs, and increase their manpower.
Kill the children?
Seriously, are you trying to get your head cut off? That would be the fastest way to outrage the populace.
Your (Ansel's) argument is silly.

Edited by Timuroslav, 22 October 2012 - 12:34 PM.


#77 Ansel

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:25 PM

View PostTimuroslav, on 22 October 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Ok, a token force here a token force there, Then your whole Armada is depeleted, AND you're not extracting resources and using factories.
Given the Clans out numbered Army and Resources, they would need to be on best terms with the populace.
Kill the children?
Seriously, are you trying to get your head cut off? That would be the fastest way to outrage the populace.
Your argument is silly.


Care to explain how you would cut the head off of a man in space in a warship?

Care to even explain how you as a civilian would get there? Get past all of the armed people on that ship?

#78 Timuroslav

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:29 PM

View PostAnsel, on 22 October 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:


Care to explain how you would cut the head off of a man in space in a warship?

Care to even explain how you as a civilian would get there? Get past all of the armed people on that ship?


So you're not even on the planet or even have the planet you're just outside it. That makes sense, oh considering Space travel takes weeks, I'll wait until you run out of food. Or I'll just ignore your presence. But ya go ahead waste Time, Man power, and energy to watch All the populace, as the Inner sphere Rallies, because that makes sense.

Oh by the way all your mechs have to be shipped from the periphery to be repaired or even created because you're not occupying the planets. Easily a couple months. Where they could be attacked within weeks.
Logistics is logisitcs

Edited by Timuroslav, 22 October 2012 - 12:40 PM.


#79 Z0MBIE Y0SHI

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:35 PM

I always did love the idea of the clans, but there's no way in hell they could pull it off.

If they could remain united, it's possible, but they never did/could so that observation is irrelevant.

#80 Ansel

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:41 PM

View PostTimuroslav, on 22 October 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:


So you're not even on the planet or even have the planet you're just outside it. That makes sense, oh considering Space travel takes weeks, I'll wait until you run out of food. Or I'll just ignore your presence. But ya go ahead waste time and energy to watch All the populace, as the Inner sphere Rallies, because that makes sense.


In other words you can't do a dam thing.

As for running out of food, thats laughable, unless you think a resupply ship can't be jumped in assuming the warship would even need to stay in orbit long enough to need one. Good luck with having your first city turned into glass.

As for the time it takes to travel in space, what difference does that make, no one would want to have their homes burned and their family killed by someone they cannot fight back aginst. You resist and kill the appointed governer, keep in mind that I wouldn't use my own troops lol, clans come back and glass another city appoint another gov. and take what they want. You have effectivly done nothing except to kill your own people and then have more killed for doing so, congratulations.

What exactly would civilans do if they rallied, on planets with major food production there will be a major garrison force, same with factories needed to continue the war.

Do you think every civilian in the IS has a dropship stored out back in a barn or something lol. Without the ability to travel in space and reinforce each other they would be ineffective and isolated, ineffective and isolated enemies aren't hard to deal with.





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