220 replies to this topic

[PaintedWolf]

Even if they had taken Earth, given the low numbers of Clanners vs Spheroids, could Clans ever really hope to hold all that ground, let alone the rest of the entire Inner Sphere?

I mean wouldn't any attempt to actually try and impose their Caste System on regular Inner Sphere folks create a huge backlash?

[Timuroslav]

They would not be able to hold the Inner Sphere, solely for the fact that you just stated, and that their culture as astronomically out numbered. Clan tech though 'Superior' is fragile due to the lack of heavy metals found Often in Steiner territories, and areas closer to Terra. Although the Clans do have a couple things going for them. Honor, and a society united under the perpetuation of Warriors.

Personally, I think the Clans could get to Terra, but wouldn't be able to hold it because of the Amount of aggressive Capitalistic and Conniving cultures in numerous areas. The closer they would get to Terra the more bogged down they would get because of the increasing distaste for clan Culture, and the amount of enemies they would have to make along the way. There is a reason why many of the clans fail, and a lot of the time it's because of implosions, and internal fighting. The more worlds you control, the more political maneuvering becomes important, and that's something the Clans don't quite understand, because their society is united in respecting the Warrior Class, because of life expectancy of this class, and the burdens they create and resolve.

Keep in mind the lore has been built up for quite a long time, so perception is the key word here. The lore is designed to avoid a blatant Hero System and Evil guy System. They did this to make it kind of an onimous Dark age. Like After the fall of Rome or the after the Fall of the Han Dynasty. Lot's of quarreling in this seemingly apocalyptic post Federal Star League world. They would be seen as Villains and usurpers.

Edited by Timuroslav, 17 October 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[dal10]

if they adopted the Warden Wolf policy they might be able to pull it off, subjugation by force however would not be possible.

[Stormwolf]

I think that they could have done it when you apply Fasanomics to the occupying armies.

Anyway, the entire idea of the initial invasion was to see which Clan would become the IlClan.
Now, let's say Clan Jade Falcon became the IlClan, those guys could get the remaining homeworld Clans to invade the IS in addition to the ones that are already present.

Now the DC and LA half of the Fedcom would have most certainly been conquered. The rest of the IS would be in trouble without the economic power of the Lyrans and knowledge gained by the DC (they were slightly ahead of the rest with C3 and captured Clan tech).

[dal10]

Stormwolf, on 18 October 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

I think that they could have done it when you apply Fasanomics to the occupying armies.

Anyway, the entire idea of the initial invasion was to see which Clan would become the IlClan.
Now, let's say Clan Jade Falcon became the IlClan, those guys could get the remaining homeworld Clans to invade the IS in addition to the ones that are already present.

Now the DC and LA half of the Fedcom would have most certainly been conquered. The rest of the IS would be in trouble without the economic power of the Lyrans and knowledge gained by the DC (they were slightly ahead of the rest with C3 and captured Clan tech).

lets just go they could do it, just not with a single push. it would take multiple invasions. and probably 100-200 years on the inside.

[Takeo]

dal10, on 18 October 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

lets just go they could do it, just not with a single push. it would take multiple invasions. and probably 100-200 years on the inside.

Perfectly Said. I am a clanner at heart, since I am with the FRR (Wait until they merge with the Bears). I can't see them doing it in one shot would have been a logistics nightmare and IS people don't follow clan laws so they would rebel and Mercs fighting them behind the lines.

Edited by Takeo, 18 October 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[IceSerpent]

PaintedWolf, on 17 October 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Even if they had taken Earth, given the low numbers of Clanners vs Spheroids, could Clans ever really hope to hold all that ground, let alone the rest of the entire Inner Sphere?

I mean wouldn't any attempt to actually try and impose their Caste System on regular Inner Sphere folks create a huge backlash?

Holding Terra shouldn't be a problem, because most likely the only opposition would be ComStar/WoB. Actually conquering the rest of IS would probably take a while, but can be done piecemeal. Liao and Marik were not very keen on fighting the Clans, so conquer DC and LA first (while cranking up breeding programs at the same time), then LA, then the rest. Finish the job a 3-5 generations of warriors after the start.

[dal10]

Taking the combine would be easier said than done. it would probably go last.

[PaintedWolf]

IceSerpent, on 18 October 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Holding Terra shouldn't be a problem, because most likely the only opposition would be ComStar/WoB.

Should be simple enough. Just take a few WMDs against super-concentrated forces and then rule over a few hundred billion people.

[Jaroth Corbett]

dal10, on 17 October 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

if they adopted the Warden Wolf policy they might be able to pull it off, subjugation by force however would not be possible.

Incorrect. From what we saw in Operation Klondike, force works damn well. The problem was that Revival was not handled that way. Klondike had ALL the Clans attack ALL the Pentagon Worlds. Had they done the same thing in Revival (which is why I think it was not written that way) they would have wiped the floor with the IS as they were doing until the YoP & if they kept silent about Terra until the end (also another reason I think it was not written that way) they could have easily taken it.

Remember that the CC & the FWL were not directly involved & the FWL (due to some impressive blackmail by the Fox) was manufacturing mechs & providing supplies to the FC, DC & FRR. Had they been trying to repel their own Clan invaders, this would not have been the case.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 19 October 2012 - 03:52 AM.

[dal10]

Jaroth Winson, on 19 October 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

Incorrect. From what we saw in Operation Klondike, force works damn well. The problem was that Revival was not handled that way. Klondike had ALL the Clans attack ALL the Pentagon Worlds. Had they done the same thing in Revival (which is why I think it was not written that way) they would have wiped the floor with the IS as they were doing until the YoP & if they kept silent about Terra until the end (also another reason I think it was not written that way) they could have easily taken it.

Remember that the CC & the FWL were not directly involved & the FWL (due to some impressive blackmail by the Fox) was manufacturing mechs & providing supplies to the FC, DC & FRR. Had they been trying to repel their own Clan invaders, this would not have been the case.

It is true that Klondike took over the pentagon worlds, But the Inner sphere is a hell of a lot larger than the pentagon worlds, The clans simply DO NOT have the resources to take it by force. at least not in a single run. hell, taking Terra alone would have been a stretch, and it would only get worse from there, because the IS would be ready for them.

[Ashla Mason]

The answer is yes, If we were to take into consideration a few factors and/or adjust a few factors.

First off, the inner sphere got astoundingly lucky in that the ilkhan was killed. If he hadn't, they wouldn't have had a year to re-organize for the next wave and would likely have continued to lose worlds until Terra fell into the hands of one clan or another (probably wolf).

Second, the clans invaded with a comparatively small part of their forces; 4 out of a possible 17 clans. If the crusader clans had gone in their full force (which at the time of invasion would have added hells horses, fire mandril, nova cat, star adder, burrock, blood spirit and ice hellion) then they would have been able to tear clean through the IS to terra, and one of them would have become the ilClan.

If the clans were smart enough to know that the IS couldn't be taken in a single generation, then odds are they would have been quick to refit captured IS manufacturing facilities to assist in construction of new mechs, aerospace fighters and munitions.

So yeah: I could totally see the clans being able to take the IS.

[dal10]

you also forget, The clans that attacked, are from what I can tell, by far the largest of the Clans. but even then, The ghost bears had 13 galaxies total during the combine-bear war. assuming it is straight mechwarriors (which I know it was not.) 15 per trinary 45-75 (depending on how you do your math 3 trinaries or 5) 225-375 per galaxy. at largest, 5000 warriors. multiply that by 17. 82875. divided by 2000. an average of 42 warriors per world. also, that would take more than a generation. especially if the population resisted.

[Woska]

I think they could. Capturing terra would have been a huge blow to the morale of the Inner Sphere forces, and would have delayed any real back lash. Also, taking possession of Comstar would have given the clans control of the interplanetary communication system. If your enemies can't coordinate, they numerical advantages are negated.

Of course in the long run I think the Clans would be corrupted by the very people they were trying to enlighten. After a couple of generations you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from the rest of the Inner Sphere.

[dal10]

Woska, on 19 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I think they could. Capturing terra would have been a huge blow to the morale of the Inner Sphere forces, and would have delayed any real back lash. Also, taking possession of Comstar would have given the clans control of the interplanetary communication system. If your enemies can't coordinate, they numerical advantages are negated.

Of course in the long run I think the Clans would be corrupted by the very people they were trying to enlighten. After a couple of generations you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from the rest of the Inner Sphere.

Taking Terra would not automatically give them control over comstar...

[Ashla Mason]

dal10, on 19 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

you also forget, The clans that attacked, are from what I can tell, by far the largest of the Clans. but even then, The ghost bears had 13 galaxies total during the combine-bear war. assuming it is straight mechwarriors (which I know it was not.) 15 per trinary 45-75 (depending on how you do your math 3 trinaries or 5) 225-375 per galaxy. at largest, 5000 warriors. multiply that by 17. 82875. divided by 2000. an average of 42 warriors per world. also, that would take more than a generation. especially if the population resisted.

You seem to have forgotten that the bears also transplanted their entire society to their IS holdings; I believe that the actual invasion force they had at there disposal was closer to 4 or 5 galaxies and the other clans had comparable forces at their disposal.

Also: the clans were able to engage in some truly brutal crackdowns when they had evidence of partisan antics, and that tends to end resistance very, very quickly.

[dal10]

Ashla Mason, on 19 October 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

You seem to have forgotten that the bears also transplanted their entire society to their IS holdings; I believe that the actual invasion force they had at there disposal was closer to 4 or 5 galaxies and the other clans had comparable forces at their disposal.

Also: the clans were able to engage in some truly brutal crackdowns when they had evidence of partisan antics, and that tends to end resistance very, very quickly.

that temporarily ends resistance, and if it ever flares up again, it will just flare up that much harder.

[Ashla Mason]

dal10, on 19 October 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

that temporarily ends resistance, and if it ever flares up again, it will just flare up that much harder.

Which is why the jade falcons were forced to flee the inner sphere, never to return...

[dal10]

or why the jaguars got wiped out.

also, Verthandi

Edited by dal10, 19 October 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

You guys are missing a few important parts, the word of blake's "Dark Age" is an extreme example of how it could have gone. The clans wouldn't need to pacify each world initially, just maintain a iron grip on the comstar HPG as their own: While keeping a entire galaxy under your thumb might be difficult if you isolate each planet then you can focus on controlling space traffic as a whole (Notably at the time of the clan invasion, the inner sphere had no surviving warships(comstar had a small group) in service while clan jade falcon brought 28 of them on their own. Supposedly around that time the inner sphere had about 30,000 jumpships, though some source books quote a tenth of that it seems unreasonable for a entire galaxy to run on just 3,000 jumpships).

With out the ability to communicate or access off planet logistic lines it would be little more then a game of attrition for and what clan was in charge. (Warden clans would likely take a carrot-and-stick approach while crusader clans would police their worlds with more brutality.) Or the world of blake could come along and BLOW EVERYONE UP so no one knows what the hells going on anymore.....stupid dark ages.

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 19 October 2012 - 09:59 AM.