15 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

This is more a curiosity to see what people rather LBX look like, as I'm sure the developers have already worked out their take on it.

Effectively, in Table Top and MechWarrior 2, LBX works like this: When it strikes it always has a chance to hit with each of it's pellets; it actually extends range by a pretty good margin and increases accuracy / chance to hit. This makes LBX a good weapon for further range support, making an LBX/10, for example, a good weapon to pair with standard PPCs.

However, in recent MechWarrior games, this has been changed to act like a 'mech FPS shotgun, where the scatter shot is very powerful the closer you get to the 'mech, with fall off the further out you get. This has turned it into a brawler-centric weapon that's usefulness is directly tied to how close you are willing to get to the enemy; I will dare say that because of this, it's actually exceeded the AC/20 and Ultra AC/20 when available as the brawler weapon of choice in these games.

Basically, the canon of how the weapon works is that it fires a slug, but the slug will fragment (the shotgun blast effect) in mid flight, presumably when it approaches it's target impact range - a major reason it's Lostech; this also explains the range bonus, as effectively when the shell hits the furthest distance it can go, it can explode and propel the fragments forward further. Again, this is basically contrasted to recent games where the gun itself fires the pellets.

Anyway, as a personal preference, I'd like to see the return of the original LBX style with an unpredictable unfocused scatter shot effect near the target (similar to the airburst grenade concept for the aborted XM29 OICW) and longer maximum ranges, giving it a unique range support setup rather than the shotgun setup; my main concern is the LBX is one of the chief weapons responsible in past games for pushing almost every fight into a close range brawl in exclusion to ranged weapons due to it's combination of power, spread and absolute need for close range to be effective.

What does everyone else think?

[FACEman Peck]

Flechette rounds go through softer objects a lot better than buckshot, but buckshot does over 3 times as much damage as flechette rounds do to most anything. Unless flechette rounds have little fins for stability, they won't go anywhere near as far as buckshot.

[Johannes Falkner]

Try this.

Ewww

[Damocles]

I enjoyed the MW3 version of LBX most.

[syngyne]

Victor Morson, on 27 March 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Basically, the canon of how the weapon works is that it fires a slug, but the slug will fragment (the shotgun blast effect) in mid flight, presumably when it approaches it's target impact range - a major reason it's Lostech; this also explains the range bonus, as effectively when the shell hits the furthest distance it can go, it can explode and propel the fragments forward further. Again, this is basically contrasted to recent games where the gun itself fires the pellets.

I don't think the charge is going to be responsible for pushing the payload any further. If you think about it, the round's going to be in a downward arc towards the end of its effective range, so speeding it up is just going to make it hit the ground faster.

Acting like an AHEAD round would be pretty cool, with the fragmentation happening close to the target's range.

Edited by syngyne, 27 March 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[Johannes Falkner]

That would be a ridiculous anti personnel weapon.

[syngyne]

Johannes Falkner, on 27 March 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

That would be a ridiculous anti personnel weapon.

Bofors makes rounds that can be used for just that purpose.

[Belisarius1]

I'd been thinking about this myself. I'm torn, because I think both are interesting and add unique elements to gameplay.

What I'd actually love to see is both, using the LBX's (already canon) ability to fire in frag and slug modes. I'd love to see its slug ammo replaced with the shotgun version, or even add shotgun rounds as a third ammunition type.

I don't really think the combination option you have up there helps. I don't see much practical difference between that and option 1.

Also, as a random aside, neither makes any sense in physics terms, so we're not going to find answers there. Both are pretty ridiculous. Tanks use canister shot exclusively on infantry for a reason, and there's also no reason a fragmenting round would have a longer effective range against armour.

Edited by Belisarius†, 27 March 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

should be a sub munition container - only a single grenade - (Barghest) not a burst of shells - another idea was to call it a metal storm system.
Every barrel firing one shot -> LBX - use a single barrel in a concentrated burst -> normal AC mode
problem -> use all grenades in all barrels at the same time :-(

[GDL Irishwarrior]

Checking in with Sarna real quick, it appears that the added range of LBX Autocannons is the result of more sophisticated fire control/targeting systems, rather than some mechanism within the shell itself.
As far as how their damage spread should work, I always got the impression that they basically fired like a shotgun with a rather tight choke - it fires a relatively tight pattern of explosive submunitions, to prevent excessive loss of damage over range while giving a moderately increased chance to hit. For in-game mechanics, I just figure they should have a small spread as the distance-to-target increases. Not enough to make them entirely useless at range, but enough to spread the damage across multiple locations and make them less of a nightmare for the target. This pattern should remain proportionally constant for all classes (I.E., LB 2-X ACs would have the same size pattern at 900 meters as a 20-X would have at ~360 meters)

Edited by GDL Irishwarrior, 27 March 2012 - 10:56 PM.

[Siilk]

Belisarius†, on 27 March 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

What I'd actually love to see is both, using the LBX's (already canon) ability to fire in frag and slug modes. I'd love to see its slug ammo replaced with the shotgun version, or even add shotgun rounds as a third ammunition type.

Yes, that would be a very good solution: being able to fire slug, flechette and scatter rounds and the ability to switch between different ammo types on the go, provided these ammo types are available in the mech ammo bays.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

It may be more useful if ammo was available in 1/2 tom lots where you only have a mech with 1 ton of ammo. If the "shotgun" close range ammo type was added, then it is easier to free up a 1/2 ton to add extra. When they do introduce the LBX it obsolesces the standard AC totally. Leaving people with mechs that mount them almost no option but to upgrade. Given that the 10 is the only one we will have during the start period, it also effectively obsolesces the AC5 as well.

[aptest]

http://en.wikipedia..../Proximity_fuze

[General Taskeen]

People often confuse the 'Cluster-Shot' when they read its canon description that says it is like a "Mech-Sized Shotgun."

A cluster still has the extended/enhanced range of a normal (slug) shot. When turned up against Aircraft, they became devastating Anti-Aircraft weapons compared to the 'flak' of Battle Tech, due to their enourmous sized shells and range.

In MWO, the cluster has been treated poorly and interpreted in a completely illogical way. Consider that the MWO LB 10-X has an enhanced range of 540m. But, that extra range is a moot point, when you are lucky to even with hit with 1 of those pellets. It is therefore completely in-effective at competing with weapons in the same or similar range group, which is what it is for being a complete upgrade of an AC/10.



It is not supposed to be a knife-fighting 40m close-range shotgun, but that is how they programmed it. And it is terrible.

Also factor in that all spread weapons thus far have been given inreased damage due to inaccuracy.

An LRM-10 does 1 Damage Per Missile in TT for a total of 10 missiles, however that was changed to 1.8 (and has fluctuated various times in Closed Beta). An SRM missile does 2 Damage Per Missile in TT, which was changed to 2.5 to account for inaccuracy. An LB 10-X is 1 Damage Per Pellet for 10 Total, but was given no enhanced damage to spread, and its range is not even made an advantage in-game.

If they wanted to balance it right they'd take notes from how other games made it more competitive:

1. The Enhanced range needs to be an advantage by reducing the spread drastically of the cluster to effectively hit with all pellets at a range of 540m. (While the cone would change accordingly for each sized LB-X; LB 2-X, LB 5-X, LB 20-X, each with their respective number of pellets)
2. The Pellets need to have their damage increased to account for spread and inaccuracy of the shot, as with other spread weapons

If LB 2-X, 5-X, and 20-X that would be even far more unreliable if the LB-X stays in such an unbalanced, uncompetitive state. They would have enourmous spread, no range advantage, and no increased pellete damage. A currently programmed Ultra AC/5 would mean the introduction of an over powered Ultra AC/20 that fires 2 shells at once for 40 Damage, clearly outmatching an LB 20-X if introduced by how they have been programmed thus far.

And as noted by a poster above, a LB-X cluster would be more like a cylindrical, very tight choke/spread.


As in this, the pellets remaining within a cylindrical shape, but slightly spread out



rather than a Conical shape

Edited by General Taskeen, 11 March 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

I like the current LBX, just needs its spread tightened another 50-100% imho

[Zyllos]

GDL Irishwarrior, on 27 March 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Checking in with Sarna real quick, it appears that the added range of LBX Autocannons is the result of more sophisticated fire control/targeting systems, rather than some mechanism within the shell itself.
As far as how their damage spread should work, I always got the impression that they basically fired like a shotgun with a rather tight choke - it fires a relatively tight pattern of explosive submunitions, to prevent excessive loss of damage over range while giving a moderately increased chance to hit. For in-game mechanics, I just figure they should have a small spread as the distance-to-target increases. Not enough to make them entirely useless at range, but enough to spread the damage across multiple locations and make them less of a nightmare for the target. This pattern should remain proportionally constant for all classes (I.E., LB 2-X ACs would have the same size pattern at 900 meters as a 20-X would have at ~360 meters)

This is the best answer. The LBX weapon just needs to have an extremely tight spread so that it can be used out to optimal range of it's type. The "shotgun" effect just makes the LBX unique compared to the regular AC.