11 replies to this topic

[destiny valkyrie]

one complaint that came up in my last topic was the boss battles in mechassault 2: lone wolf. in my opinion those boss battles were bad ***.( especially the final one) there was just something about the skill it took to take them down and the sudden difficulty spike that these battles signified. i don't care what you say about them they were awesome.

[Adridos]

Skill to take those "bosses" down?

Do not have illusions, kid. That is easy as pie. Try to fight a full mech Clan star in an IS mech, now that is skill.

[destiny valkyrie]

the spider was easy but i was referring to the final boss that you had to shoot in the head for awhile ,then neurohack, then hit in the head with mortars, and if his shield came back up u had to neurohack again, not to mention the power armour cant take much damage and his attacks are strong enough to kill you in almost no time at all

[Ramrod]

The skills involved in pattern identification, memorisation and implementation as required by the boss fights you're talking about are not really the same kinds of skills required to defeat Clanners using an IS Mech, as Adridos is saying.

Observation, recall, dexterity, those are general skills, ones that you're either born with or have to grow into. Boss fights rely mostly on these skills.

Knowing how to take advantage of the strengths of the Mech you're piloting, and finding some way to use them to exploit the weaknesses of the enemy's Mech, all the while coordinating with your lance to time your attacks together properly, managing your heat, ammo, etc etc is a different set of very specific, trained tactical and strategic skills.

Note that the situation suggested by Adridos also utilises observation, recall and dexterity, to about the same extent as a video game boss fight. An experienced player can beat a boss battle even if he's on gamer-autopilot. In multiplayer, this becomes less and less viable as you fight better and better players.

They're not quite in the same category, and thus comparing them is sort of a dead end in terms of what one might learn. What is certain is that pitting yourself against a human player who posesses all the skills to win in a situation like Adridos posits, would be several orders of magnitude more challenging than to fight than a boss with a repeating pattern, no matter how punishing the boss is. Frustration is not the same as challenge.

Edited by Ramrod, 28 March 2012 - 06:35 AM.

[Belial]

Adridos, on 28 March 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

Try to fight a full mech Clan star in an IS mech, now that is skill.

Tried it once. It did not end well.

Now, as far as those boss fights go... well, every game has a boss system of some kind, even if it doesn't outright say "lolz here's a boss for u to fight." Here's the big difference between what MechAssault did, and what the MW sims do (remember, I'm saying this as someone who liked MechAssault- just follow me on this):

- MechAssault (2 especially) had boss fights that had an enemy who, while appearing intimidating and threatening, had very specific behavior patterns and weak spots that could be observed and exploited within minutes, if even that. The only reason that weird Half-Atlas-Abomination could kill you was if you didn't jump out of the way in time or get nailed by those eye lasers. It took, as Ramrod said, some skills in the dexterity and recognition department.

- MechWarrior usually just featured a powerful 'Mech at the end of a mission (or even in the middle of it), but the skill needed to defeat it was much higher than what the aforementioned boss types take. My favorite example is I think in the last mission of Operation 1 in MechWarrior 3. You're in a 55-ton Bushwacker, no Clan tech salvaged yet, and the 'Mech at the end is a 75-ton Orion that is deadly as all hell. There's nothing über-special about it. It's just a piece of walking hardware, no crazy LosTech or Blakist magical charms. You have to stay on your toes every second, keeping track of your weapon recycles, maneuvering around him (and no, sniping him isn't an automatic fix-it solution, since he can and does snipe right back with more missiles than your little Bushy can carry). At any second a critical hit can cripple, maim or destroy either 'Mech, meanwhile autocannon hits from both 'Mechs knock each other around, throwing off aim and forcing the pilot to re-calibrate. Or, you can get in a few solid hits, overheat, and... ok, I think my point is made.

Boss fights like what MA2 had are fun, in their own game and place. Many people were turned off by MA2 precisely because it threw in arcade game elements that, simply put, had no business trying to wear the MechWarrior logo. Now, I personally really liked the fact I could play with 'Mechs I knew and loved on the Xbox, but I can think of a lot of other things that could have been implemented to increase the sim feel, like instead of power-ups, have a repair bay every so often, and have actual ammo counts for everything, not just the upgraded versions of things. A bit of customization would have been nice, and not unheard of in games before.

I appreciate the attempt by Day 1 Studios and Microsoft to give BattleTech to a more general crowd, but it got toned down too much. And now a TRUE title is around the corner, and unfortunately people of the newer generation- who have been pampered by MechAssault- are getting their minds blown by the complexity of this game, and get offended at the animosity veteran players have towards MechAssault. But trust me, Valkyrie, it's for a good reason. Also, I notice that this is your third topic that attempts to defend the antics of MechAssault. By now it should be obvious what the general consensus here is, and I strongly urge you to spend more time studying past MW games so you don't go into this one completely blind. MechAssault had a fun run and died quietly (but not forgotten, for better or for ill). Now it's time to move on to the really good stuff.

Edited by Belial, 28 March 2012 - 07:05 AM.

[John Wolf]

These posts seem less like a discussion and more like trolling. We understand you like mechassault, and from your declaration don't care what we say.. so, why do you continue to keep posting about it? There isn't anything to discuss.

[Stormwolf]

Belial, on 28 March 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Tried it once. It did not end well.

Tried it and succeeded, those Firemoths are never going to be bothering my Mauler ever again.

Quote

- MechWarrior usually just featured a powerful 'Mech at the end of a mission (or even in the middle of it), but the skill needed to defeat it was much higher than what the aforementioned boss types take. My favorite example is I think in the last mission of Operation 1 in MechWarrior 3. You're in a 55-ton Bushwacker, no Clan tech salvaged yet, and the 'Mech at the end is a 75-ton Orion that is deadly as all hell. There's nothing über-special about it. It's just a piece of walking hardware, no crazy LosTech or Blakist magical charms. You have to stay on your toes every second, keeping track of your weapon recycles, maneuvering around him (and no, sniping him isn't an automatic fix-it solution, since he can and does snipe right back with more missiles than your little Bushy can carry). At any second a critical hit can cripple, maim or destroy either 'Mech, meanwhile autocannon hits from both 'Mechs knock each other around, throwing off aim and forcing the pilot to re-calibrate. Or, you can get in a few solid hits, overheat, and... ok, I think my point is made.

I remember that, the autocanon on that thing strips away armor at a pretty alarming rate. I finally got the drop on that sucker when I retried the mission.

I think that I'll go install MW3 again.


At any rate, mechwarrior has real meatgrinder missions, the Clan trials for instance can be pretty hard even when the AI isn't all that smart.

The final Jade Falcon trial has you first fight a Marauder IIC (85 tons) and then a Dire Wolf/Daishi (100 tons), the mech you get is a 20 ton Firemoth (it's the fastest mech in the game though).

The final Clan Wolf trial has a you in a Timber Wolf/Mad Cat (75 tons) against a Warhawk/Masakari (85 tons) and a Warhammer IIC (80 tons) at the same time. In the next stage of the battle you'll fight two Marauder IIC's and a Warhammer IIC, fighting those three in a already damaged mech is going to take everything out of you.

Good times

[Belial]

Stormwolf, on 28 March 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

The final Clan Wolf trial has a you in a Timber Wolf/Mad Cat (75 tons) against a Warhawk/Masakari (85 tons) and a Warhammer IIC (80 tons) at the same time. In the next stage of the battle you'll fight two Marauder IIC's and a Warhammer IIC, fighting those three in a already damaged mech is going to take everything out of you.

Good times

I think the only reason I finished it on my first try was because I managed to touch off the Warhawk's missile ammo right away, thus getting rid of one problem before it started. Good times, indeed. Now if only my game would quit crashing on one of the Jade Falcon missions. I've never completed the Jade Falcon side of the campaign because of that.

[Alan Grant]

Belial, on 28 March 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

- MechWarrior usually just featured a powerful 'Mech at the end of a mission (or even in the middle of it), but the skill needed to defeat it was much higher than what the aforementioned boss types take. My favorite example is I think in the last mission of Operation 1 in MechWarrior 3. You're in a 55-ton Bushwacker, no Clan tech salvaged yet, and the 'Mech at the end is a 75-ton Orion that is deadly as all hell. There's nothing über-special about it. It's just a piece of walking hardware, no crazy LosTech or Blakist magical charms. You have to stay on your toes every second, keeping track of your weapon recycles, maneuvering around him (and no, sniping him isn't an automatic fix-it solution, since he can and does snipe right back with more missiles than your little Bushy can carry). At any second a critical hit can cripple, maim or destroy either 'Mech, meanwhile autocannon hits from both 'Mechs knock each other around, throwing off aim and forcing the pilot to re-calibrate. Or, you can get in a few solid hits, overheat, and... ok, I think my point is made.

Boss fights like what MA2 had are fun, in their own game and place. Many people were turned off by MA2 precisely because it threw in arcade game elements that, simply put, had no business trying to wear the MechWarrior logo. Now, I personally really liked the fact I could play with 'Mechs I knew and loved on the Xbox, but I can think of a lot of other things that could have been implemented to increase the sim feel, like instead of power-ups, have a repair bay every so often, and have actual ammo counts for everything, not just the upgraded versions of things. A bit of customization would have been nice, and not unheard of in games before.

I still have PTSD from that battle. It took me nearly 15 attempts to make it through and then with a severely battered mech at the end.

Adridos, on 28 March 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

Skill to take those "bosses" down?

Do not have illusions, kid. That is easy as pie. Try to fight a full mech Clan star in an IS mech, now that is skill.

Tried it. Haven't done it again. Barely survived, and lost my whole lance. It was more luck, than skill at the very end.

I hate boss battles. One of the reasons I stay away from arcade style games. The only time its ok, is if it makes sense in the story line, like in Mass Effect 2. An Atlas-chimera [not the chimera mech] with lazor eyes.... yeeaaahhhh.....

[Stormwolf]

Alan Grant, on 28 March 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

I still have PTSD from that battle. It took me nearly 15 attempts to make it through and then with a severely battered mech at the end.

You can lure it away from the area it is standing and pepper it with LRM's. It'll go down without too many losses in your unit.

[Exilyth]

Sounds like that one boss.

Then again, MA isn't even nintendo hard.

[Alan Grant]

Stormwolf, on 28 March 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

You can lure it away from the area it is standing and pepper it with LRM's. It'll go down without too many losses in your unit.

This was years ago, but that sounds pretty much like what I did in the end eventually. Sent in my lancemate, and got him to bring him closer to the bank of the river, and then I laid waste from long range.