373 replies to this topic

[VX Seraphin]

The only problem with stick to mouse emulation is that it can only properly work with arm lock off.

I actually play with arm lock off,so that never showed itself to me
trying it ,there is a difference,but I personally could not develop the condition you suggest
that does not mean it doesn,t exist ,just means I didn,t duplicate it
but it did make me take a second look at the analog axis ,and an interesting thing happened
I may have been going the wrong way with the dead zone
i spent a little more time with the analog programming in the game to find that a larger dead zone may be better
by giving you more freedom to move the stick off axis before it responds ,instead of trying to keep that pinpoint accuracy all across the stick range, seems to give a liitle more *freedom* in your hand when making a precise shot,or tracking a target on the move
you still have the speed at the extreme throw of the axis, but you have a little more *wiggle* room at the center of the axis
in a earlier post I was asked if the in game axis where as smooth as m#3,to which I replied only by mouse emulation
playing around today , I would have to say the analog axis in game are up to the task, just as good as m#3
at the end of the day it all depends on how the individual wants to control ,and how the individual wants to have the controls to feel
when I first started the mechwarrior series, I played keyboard, then keyboard and mouse, then keyboard mouse and joystick, finally going to 2 joysticks, with all important functions mapped to joystick buttons. the keyboard not used for anything mech related during the game.
but the most important thing is that all you warriors go out and pilot with whatever makes the experience as rewarding and satisfying as it can be for you
see you an the battlefield

VX_Seraphin

[evilC]

You would only see the issue if you tried to look around very quickly.
Maybe with stick you cannot move it quick enough to see that, or maybe your stick to mouse code is limiting the speed of the mouse movement.

I dunno really, I do not have a stick with that capability, and I cannot get AutoHotkey to control mouse input in MWO, so all my attempts to write a zero-order script failed.

Whatever, it should all be moot in theory as PGI will be releasing absolute input mode for sticks soon, but PGI do not have a great track record of getting things like this right first time...

[shotokan5]

I have no problems with my Saitek X52 Pro. The only problem is having to click the controller to bind since the last two patches. Other than that bring it on.

[VX Seraphin]

You are probably only one of like 8 people that actually understands what it means that I [color="#b27204"]built my own stick specifically for absolute inputs and mech piloting[/color] (mounted in [color="#b27204"]my new mechpit)[/color].

Loc Nar, count me as number 9:)
that is some slick engineering on your part
I am looking at a dedicated seat setup ,using the seat and joystick pod assemblies from a used excavator
a friend of mine deals in used equipment/parts,so I should be able to score that setup at a fair price*favour for favour *
the handles I want to use are a little more pricey though
been trying to find a used set from a caterpillar D5 or 6 tractor, but to no avail
to buy them brand new is 600,680 Canadian dollars respectively
but what I like about them is they are more of a palm grip,instead of a traditional joystick
probably the nicest control handles I have ever used,in real life situations
work 12 hours a day with no wrist pain,or fatigue,very comfortable in the hand,much like the CH throttle,but as a matching pair
the other day I spent a good 14 hours on a caterpillar 390 excavator and I was marveling on how smooth the controls worked,when I realized,what may help with some peeps joysticking
the springs that are used on the valves for control are actually fairly stiff, compared to gaming joysticks
this means you have to exert a little pressure to actually actuate the control, whereas with gaming joysticks there is very little pressure needed
perhaps with a little more resistance, those precise movements would be easier to do, as the joystick would allways be looking for center
also in my CH programing, there is a tab on the axis profile which is called *centered*
low and behold, by clicking it clear, you get a more linear control, much finer than mouse emulation, probably very close to absolute input
well anyways that's a few more of my thoughts on the joystick thing, great to see people such as yourself with this much passion for the game....or wait a minute...
it,s not a game!!!!
it,s an adventure!!!

VX_Seraphin

[auniqueid]

so whats the status of using joysticks with mech? is it still a pita? looking for an excuse to get a warthog...

btw, awesome setup vx

[Gremlich Johns]

Jimbobbob, on 18 July 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

so whats the status of using joysticks with mech? is it still a pita? looking for an excuse to get a warthog...

btw, awesome setup vx

If you ask someone who uses a KB/M, they will more often than not tell you its a pita.

However, it all comes down to your preferences. If you like KB/M, stick with it. If you wanna try a JS, go ahead but stay with it until you know you cannot get any more out of it. I use a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and the Razer Nostromo exclusively when I play mech games. I have a good time and get respectable scores and I do not get bent out of shape when I die or lose - after all, it really is just a game.

[VX Seraphin]

btw, awesome setup vx

Jimbobbob, if you are referring to the links, give all the credit to Loc Nar.
that is his way cool equipment and I can only hope to achieve what he has
his stuff is handbuilt from the ground up, I plan on using readily available componants
with that said,I had the crazy lite bulb go off...
what if a person actually used hydraulic joysticks,and used the pressure to actuate a voltage sensor,such as a strain gauge.
the more pressure,the more voltage,the more movement
most hydraulic joysticks I have worked on have a constant pressure of around 350 psi,which is then metered from 0 to 350, depending on the amount of throw applied at the stick
could one just convert the mechanical properties of hydraulic to a proportional electrical pulse
actually I am sure it can be done,just is it something that should be done lol
man I really need to stop this overtime stuff,my thoughts are getting tooo wacky

getting back to should you go joystick,that is an absolute personal thing
this much I can say,the learning curve will be daunting,and frustrating
but if you hang in there you will eventually appreciate how effective you can be,and the immersion factor turns into a real pleasure
when I die, I ride shotgun for the rest of the match,and after a while you can tell with some degree of accuracy who is using a joystick, and who is not
the joystick movement when well executed,will allways be smoother and more realistic than mouse/keyboard
on the other hand, I have also seen some incredibly fine targeting done with a mouse
so it,s all up to you really,what you want out of this game,and what you are willing to learn
party on dude !
VX_Seraphin

[Celtic Warrior]

Jazriel, on 28 June 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

How about you DON'T play with a joystick.

I have watched way to many player with a joystick suck at aiming and bring the team down.

Stop ruining the game for the rest of us and play with a mouse.

That was the single most idiotic thing I've read in a long time and I read the news daily.

[Navid A1]

Celtic Warrior, on 20 July 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Jazriel, on 28 June 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

How about you DON'T play with a joystick.

I have watched way to many player with a joystick suck at aiming and bring the team down.

Stop ruining the game for the rest of us and play with a mouse.

That was the single most idiotic thing I've read in a long time and I read the news daily.

seriously... you should change your news channel (newspaper) then...!

yup... we get it... you are a joystick master.
That does not mean that everyone else can aim like you with a joystick.. (good joystick players are a minority)!

words can not describe the amount of fail resulting from the average player trying to aim with something other than mouse.!

Edited by Navid A1, 20 July 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[Star Lord]

I know that the Joystick is still not the favorite of the developers of this game, but it would be great to see them tweek this so that it can be used. Aiming is scattered and cannot be fine tuned at all. IN fact, the worst part of aiming with a joystick is that one small move left moves it several meters instead of a small adjustment.

I know the joystick worked extremely well on MW4. It was precise and would track immediately. There was even a point where you calibrated it to the software which MWO does not have. How about a button that slows down the joystick to half speed, meaning if you do draw your guns both north and west, you can move it quickly until you hit that wonderful button that slows it down for more pinpoint aiming.

Anything that would still give you good side to side and up and down movement but then hitting the button make those slight corrects slower and allow the mech pilot to dial in the target better.

Not sure if that is possible but I would think something could be encoded that would slow down the crosshairs and allow for smaller movements using a joystick.

I am absolute crap with a mouse, and my hope is that something can be done for those few Joystick users.

thanks!

[Celtic Warrior]

Navid A1, on 20 July 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

seriously... you should change your news channel (newspaper) then...!

yup... we get it... you are a joystick master.
That does not mean that everyone else can aim like you with a joystick.. (good joystick players are a minority)!

words can not describe the amount of fail resulting from the average player trying to aim with something other than mouse.!

Telling someone to not play the way they want is idiotic much like 99% of all news on the networks hence my reference.

[Loc Nar]

VX Seraphin, on 17 July 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

You are probably only one of like 8 people that actually understands what it means that I [color=#b27204]built my own stick specifically for absolute inputs and mech piloting[/color] (mounted in [color=#b27204]my new mechpit)[/color].

Loc Nar, count me as number 9:)
that is some slick engineering on your part
I am looking at a dedicated seat setup ,using the seat and joystick pod assemblies from a used excavator
a friend of mine deals in used equipment/parts,so I should be able to score that setup at a fair price*favour for favour *
the handles I want to use are a little more pricey though
been trying to find a used set from a caterpillar D5 or 6 tractor, but to no avail
to buy them brand new is 600,680 Canadian dollars respectively
but what I like about them is they are more of a palm grip,instead of a traditional joystick
probably the nicest control handles I have ever used,in real life situations
work 12 hours a day with no wrist pain,or fatigue,very comfortable in the hand,much like the CH throttle,but as a matching pair
the other day I spent a good 14 hours on a caterpillar 390 excavator and I was marveling on how smooth the controls worked,when I realized,what may help with some peeps joysticking
the springs that are used on the valves for control are actually fairly stiff, compared to gaming joysticks
this means you have to exert a little pressure to actually actuate the control, whereas with gaming joysticks there is very little pressure needed
perhaps with a little more resistance, those precise movements would be easier to do, as the joystick would allways be looking for center
also in my CH programing, there is a tab on the axis profile which is called *centered*
low and behold, by clicking it clear, you get a more linear control, much finer than mouse emulation, probably very close to absolute input
well anyways that's a few more of my thoughts on the joystick thing, great to see people such as yourself with this much passion for the game....or wait a minute...
it,s not a game!!!!
it,s an adventure!!!

VX_Seraphin

Hey VX, thanks for the kind words, and I'll update my list to 9 ...my setup is still a lot of fun to use, even 2 years into this adventure. I love the ideas about using excavator sticks, although I do not recommend buying them at those prices, or even anything close. You can make the same money go much farther in other directions, and ultimately no matter what grip you use it is only as effective as the gimbals it rides on.

I'm an ergonomics junky as well (my cockpit is comfy for hours on end), which is why I chose the Block 52 grip (F-16, Warthog, etc) because it's the result of millions of dollars of DOD money spent on researching the human hand as well as a pilot's ability to manage complex systems. As a result, it is extremely comfortable and puts a lot of buttons at easy access that would otherwise be hard to utilize, allowing one to keep their Hands On Throttle And Stick

That said, I've never found any other joystick grips to be particularly comfortable or inspiring to do hardcore mods for, and as much as I liked the Cougar (bad block 52 knockoff) the Warthog (good block 52 knockoff) smokes it and stands in a class of its own. The shape of the grip is part of it, but also the unique accessibility of the buttons/switches puts it in a category of usefulness that is not easily matched at any price. I've spent an inordinate amount of time studying controls and control grips of many vehicles, though, so would love to see some pics of these excavator grips.

To those of you waiting for some magic bullet of 'support' or considering high dollar joysticks for this game, I point you to the controls writeup I did a while back. Controls Demystified(?) It's important to understand the difference between positional control vs velocity/acceleration control because these different tasks breed mutually exclusive hardware to facilitate them and not all controllers are created equal. Understanding control-order is fundamental to understanding controls, and by doing so answers most questions ever asked about joysticks and puts to rest endless arguments of joy vs mouse...

[Reb Ace Maj]

I think joystick problems have been with the MechWarrior series games since their inception. I just put Win98 on an old Dell C840 Laptop (p4M 2.6ghz, with 1.5gb RAM (all 98 can take and still boot) and even running a Microsoft precision 2 joystick, I'm having problems with the throttle either switching directions on me uncommanded (a pain when you need to back up REALLY fast and find yourself suddenly flying FORWARD instead) or I suddenly lose throttle reversal altogether and have to rely on the keyboard to switch throttle direction. I've had varying success with my dedicated rudder pedals over the years. However, the one thing I have NOT had problems with (using either a Logitech wingman extreme digital OR the venerable MS precision 2) is using rudder/torso twist on the joystick itself (After using an ORIGINAL Gravis Firebird (for DOS) for ages, torso twist was a very nice thing to have in a joystick, trust me..I still have that firebird too, for the original MW games that were DOS only)

I too have a bit of a pile of old Precision 2 joysticks (I hated force feedback, thankfully) that I raid for potentiometers rather frequently now, since those joysticks haven't been made for what, 10 or 15 years now? But BEFORE torso twist came out, I somehow managed to use the HAT switches for torso tilt and twist, and those ALWAYS returned back to "zero" when released. I THINK I wound up stealing some code from another mech game from the DOS days, called Shattered Steel, as well as heavy Gear. I recently found a box of old mech games in the attic (I'm one of those guys who has been around since the Zenith Z-100/Tandy Trash 80 days) and was quite surprised when they worked when loaded (even off floppy..found an unopened copy of DOS 6.22 with Windows 3.11 too..) But there were around TEN different mech based games in the DOS days. Might be that you can mix and match code from the OLD games to make an entirely new driver or config file too. Just an idea. I know the original X-WING game had a similar problem. If you wanted to PAN AND FIRE, like tracking a target while firing, off the keyboard, you simply could not do it. The arrow keys would not continue scrolling sideways while you hit the space bar to fire. Yet in the NEXT game, (Tie Fighter) it WAS fixed. Maybe you can find the code snippet that fixed it there, or maybe even in MW3 or 4? Too bad you can't write it in Basic..that language was pretty easy to use with potentiometers. So maybe the code from a new CNC machine (4 axis or 5?) might give you a idea as well. I know, the game owners should fix this stuff, but it might just be that THEY reused old code and they don't know HOW to address poteniometers in that fashion? If someone generates a "universal joystick code" for the game I'm sure they'd pay for it.

Now I'm off to MW3 again...I'd forgotten how much FUN that game is..Especially with that ability to missile lock and then fire way off center before losing lock..(deleted in MW4, sadly)
Reb_Ace_Maj (old guy from Rahn's Rebels..back in he early MW online days..MW2/3/4!

[VX Seraphin]

http://xml.catmms.co...282&imageType=2

http://xml.catmms.co...221&imageType=2

Loc Nar,
here,s a couple pics from the cat site
I actually like the view outta the cab, it,s rather mechy, don,t you think
if they will one day have spray on monitors,these cabs would be ideal sim pits

VX_Seraphin

[VX Seraphin]

hey Reb Ace Maj,
you wouldn,t happen to have that mech game where you had to drop beacons,which provided you with power to move further across the map?
had like a scorpion mech with this awesome long range missle launcher in it,s tail ?
can,t remember the name,but I remember playing it,and enjoying the heck outta it
M#3..
THAT was FUN!!
Seraphin in the day played mostly stock
our favorite 3 man lance was 2 mad D,supported by a Thor B
we would use that *over the shoulder SSRM thrower* technique
we would run the timberwolves together,trying to stay that 300 meters apart, the Summoner finding a nice hilltop top to long range from
the Madcat,s would engage the enemy and when it got down to the circle fight,we would shoot our wingmans target, instead of the mech engaging you
the Thor would stay back far enough to rain lrms,but not get tangled in the fray
and we loved MFB,S
we would steer the fight towards the MFB and then one after another we would repair and rearm
what a blast!
nothing more satisfying then a mfb kill!
those where the days my friend
many 3 on 5 battles where won using this method.
come to think of it ,if they would have just redone M#3,with a few more maps,and a little better graphics, that,s all I would have ever needed to be a happy warrior
I miss pyramids...

VX_Seraphin

[Loc Nar]

VX Seraphin, on 28 July 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

http://xml.catmms.co...282&imageType=2

http://xml.catmms.co...221&imageType=2

Loc Nar,
here,s a couple pics from the cat site
I actually like the view outta the cab, it,s rather mechy, don,t you think
if they will one day have spray on monitors,these cabs would be ideal sim pits

VX_Seraphin

Duuuuude... those are awesome! I see why you are interested in pursuing them, especially being already accustomed to them. If you can get a better deal on a set of 2 sets instead of 1, I might be interested...

[Kinoons]

Forgive me as I have not read all 14 pages of this thread, I was hoping to get a simple answer before I submerge myself into all of this...

Is it possible to set up a joystick for turning on the X axis and throttle on the Y axis and then have the mouse controll the pitch and yaw of the torso? Quite some time ago (thinking mechwarrior II) I was to successfully get this set up and I felt it was totally awesome. IIRC it was then removed from MW3 and I was totally bummed.

[Foust]

Kinoons, on 20 August 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

Is it possible to set up a joystick for turning on the X axis and throttle on the Y axis and then have the mouse control the pitch and yaw of the torso?

Yes is the short answer.

You will want to look at the tools EvilC has written to help with that particular setup.

[Worm Seraphin]

My only problem now is the dead zone that seems built into the game, is everyone else getting this? It makes precise aiming impossible. In the game settings the deadzone is set to zero.
I try to aim at a distant target or component, something less than the width of the reticle, move the stick to turn or twist a small amount, nothing happens. Move the stick a little more, still nothing. Move it a little more, and it overshoots the target.
I know the stick is working, these small movements are detected in the windows control panel for the controller, so it must be something built into the game, right?

[Hammerhai]

That is an old effect which makes aiming really really difficult. As I vaguely remember you can try and set the deadzone in the user cfg with c_joystick_deadzone (?). As I further remember the minimum deadzone was 0.005. But memory fails, sadly. You will have to research this, and good luck.

The upshot is though, and there you are correct, that I also never was able to snipe with the Joystick at all. Even with a Warthog and mouse emulation

Edited by Hammerhai, 11 October 2014 - 04:56 AM.