244 replies to this topic

[Saybin Iacere]

If I hit his legs, I hit his legs. Skill please.

[Sp12]

You know what sounds like a great way to make this game completely unplayable at anything beyond the casual level? Random number generators for everything.

[Nohra]

I'd be perfectly fine with a stillness=accuracy mechanic. I'd argue that it should be less severe on lighter mechs, though, as speed is the main thing that keeps them alive.

[Dirk Le Daring]

I voted pilot skill, if a player is accurate a player hits a target more, i do not want to see any near-enough-is-good-enough.

as for locations, aim at them

Edited by Dirk Le Daring, 07 March 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[Sesambrot]

Skill!

'Nuf said!

[Alexander Becker]

Well from what I have gathered from the mech warfare info, we will have to paint a target pressing "T" and the targeting computer will aim for us. I would have prefered aiming myself but I wont complain untill I have played the game first to try it out.

[Belisarius1]

It scares me that this is even being discussed, and it terrifies me that the poll is so close. I should hit what I aim at. Better pilots than me should hit what they aim at, and take me out.

Anything else would be an attempt to cripple good players instead of learning to shoot straighter.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

It's not about "hitting what you aim at". The problem is that people keep imagining that a mech is just like a single weapon and your shots somehow come out of the reticule to impact whatever is under it at the time. The arguement has been played out many times over the last 30 years. Torso mounted weapons are in mountings which move to point them at the indicated target. There are all sorts of inaccuracies and time delays in this process, irrespective of the actual accuracy of the weapon itself. All this while both the firing and targetted mech are moving. Thats why PGI have built in convergence time for the weapons. If you look at canon mechs were never totally accurate with all weapons hitting the exact same spot. this was just an artifact of the computer games. Yes it takes "skill" to hit the target, just more of it using the proposed system.

[Karl Streiger]

Let the pilot decide...

• Computer based targeting -> you have a good chance to hit the target - works best with laser - for bringing a full salvo of AC-shells into the target you need a better target and tracking systems (no Targeting Computer)
  
• Manual targeting -> you're calculating the movement of the target the computer try to point all weapons towards your aim-point...should work best with arm mounted AC - torso mounted weapons should be really inaccurate
  
• something between ???

[GaussDragon]

Well this discussion isn't as relevant now. I think the dual reticle thing is kind of neat and helps balance mech sizes so that it's harder for assaults to alpha-stomp smaller mechs (since their torso turn slower, presumably). However, I'm a little bit on the fence in regards to convergence because it softens the advantage of people who can aim quickly, not just accurately. That's half the skill.

[TheRulesLawyer]

GaussDragon, on 08 March 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Well this discussion isn't as relevant now. I think the dual reticle thing is kind of neat and helps balance mech sizes so that it's harder for assaults to alpha-stomp smaller mechs (since their torso turn slower, presumably). However, I'm a little bit on the fence in regards to convergence because it softens the advantage of people who can aim quickly, not just accurately. That's half the skill.

Battletech was never supposed to be a twitch aim sort of game. Its really a half measure between the way it probably should be, and catering to the folks who want to play quake in robots.

[GaussDragon]

TheRulesLawyer, on 08 March 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Battletech was never supposed to be a twitch aim sort of game.

Yes, and MechWarrior has been a long-running PC game based on twitch aim. I think the dual-reticle is quite innovative and it creates for more dynamic gameplay (I.E., less alpha-striking, less light mech insta-popping). But what convergence does is punish people who know how to shoot well. An alternative way to handle this is to change the recycle times on weapons, but at least with faster-firing weapons, those you can react quickly can still do so. I'll have to actually play the game and see how it works in practice to really get a feel for it, but on paper it looks punitive.

Edited by GaussDragon, 08 March 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

GaussDragon, on 08 March 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Yes, and MechWarrior has been a long-running PC game based INCORRECTLY on twitch aim.

Fixed it for yah.

[GaussDragon]

TheRulesLawyer, on 08 March 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Fixed it for yah.

Uh-huh

[TheRulesLawyer]

GaussDragon, on 08 March 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Uh-huh

It doesn't follow the lore for the world its in. It was implemented incorrectly. You can argue that it makes it a better game, but you can't really argue its right for the battletech universe.

[GaussDragon]

TheRulesLawyer, on 08 March 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

It doesn't follow the lore for the world its in. It was implemented incorrectly. You can argue that it makes it a better game, but you can't really argue its right for the battletech universe.

This is where our philosophies fundamentally differ:

Better gameplay > universe

[Karl Streiger]

GaussDragon, on 08 March 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

But what convergence does is punish people who know how to shoot well.

Who has more skill? The one that is able to point with the mouse on a target and hit the Mouse Button, or the one that has to recognize all facts that are necessary to hit a target. Point and klick an Laser Weapons are nobrainer - sry they where nobrainer in MW3 and MW4 was in general nobrainer.

[VYCanis]

point and click and invisible dice roll takes little skill

point and factor in split weapon alignment and the kind of weapon being used and how it behaves in addition to where you want to hit in spite of potentially dozens of simultaneous things happening at the same time and adjusting appropriately for those things BEFORE you click, however does.

[TheRulesLawyer]

GaussDragon, on 08 March 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

This is where our philosophies fundamentally differ:

Better gameplay > universe

See, now there is an argument worth having, that maybe its better gameplay. I tend not to agree, at least with the armor location system as is. Maybe with some of the complete hit location retoolings that were purposed early on it might work. I would agree that the BTU hit system is fundamentally not the best choice for a real time game.

[Major Payne]

I would like to see a combination of probabilistic and Pilot skill. the strength of the probability should be affected by movement speed, direction, whether the mech is taking fire, etc. If I'm standing still, I should have pinpoint accuracy. My targeting computer isn't adjusting for a million factors, I should be able to hit anything. If I'm running across rocky terrain, taking heavy ballistics fire, and strafing? The probability of me hitting the precise target will fall dramatically, but I will still be putting damage at my reticle. After all, what's the good of having all that fancy targeting equipment if it does nothing?