244 replies to this topic

[mbt201188]

I like your idea. It just makes sense. There is no way once you factor in every possible factor that all your weapons will hit that same pinpoint spot on the mech.

[lichbane]

The reticle should be a factor in defining the hit location, but shouldn't just define the hit location by itself. An inexperienced pilot will not take into account ballistic curve, smoke dissipation, and so on. Pilots with a higher 'level' will have a better chance of hitting the location they want, but even then, the environment will mean that shots can miss.

I think it should be a mix of probabilistic and reticle.

[Eegxeta]

The whole thing should be based off of where you aim and with: beam weapons it should go where you aim no delay beam weapons are lasers lasers are light, Ballistic weapons should arch and have a short delay to go longer distances bullets only go so fast, and missiles would have a delay but go where you aim unless they have guidance systems.

Edited by Eegxeta, 03 November 2011 - 07:44 PM.

[Aethon]

Probabalistic would be cool; closest to the novels, closest to the tabletop, and frankly, makes sense.

As a side thought: on fully-automatic or rapid-fire weapons, or when firing multiple non-laser weapons in rapid succession, the circle should likely get a bit larger; when considering weapons such as Rotary Autocannons, this would help recreate the cluster table roll one would take playing tabletop, or the slight spread described in the novels.

Looking forward to seeing which way the devs go with this.

[Lightfoot]

Steadfast Hand.

Skills you might learn through a skill tree are 'mech weight class qualification, weapon classes-maybe. Otherwise you might earn C-Bills and Renown. In battles you rely only on your personal skill at hitting the target. Anything else is a lie to the players. Why would you lie to players about the actual events in a battle?

Steadfast hand and actually hitting the mark is how MechWarrior Multiplayer is done. Change this at the peril of the game's success. You can only fiddle so much with a game before you've changed it into a flop.

In terms of fun multiplayer gaming there is nothing so good as the past MechWarrior games. No current MMO even comes close to the fun and pvp fairness of piloting a heavily armed and armored 'Mech. That's the core strength of MechWarrior. It's not hard to hit a 'mech and I have beaten pilots with much better records than mine.

MechWarrior gives you three tools to win matches.

1. Steadfast Hand.
2. Piloting skill.
3. Mechlab.

If you excell in any of those three skills, you have a good shot at winning. Very straightforward, very fair, and very adaptable to personal play style. Don't put a random statistical chance layer over it to start lying to players about what actually happened. It's unnecessary and a complete deviation from what makes MechWarrior the top notch multiplayer game that it has been in the past.

Look around the MMO RP world, they really don't have a clue what makes good gameplay and good pvp. 90% of them flop because they can't balance PvP. MechWarrior PvP is inherently balanced, no one is ganked, no one is given the overpowered class, everyone wins some matches.

Besides even if you did add a random statistical chance layer, it wouldn't save players or make the game any easier. It would just make it harder for players with problems to learn what they are doing wrong.

I would rather have the Devs include Joystick Support than a statistical chance to hit layer. When you ask for arcane to-hit anomalies/probabilities to be added to a game remember that only so much can be added in terms of processor demands and development resources. In that light, a to-hit probability algorithim is a frivolous waste of resources. Put those resources into places that will really make the game better.

Edited by Lightfoot, 04 November 2011 - 09:46 AM.

[Tweaks]

To answer the OP directly, I say a bit of both actually.

Pilot skill AND probabilistic. That is, a pilot still has to aim right, in the right place and account for movement, gravity and distance. But the reticle should represent the "potential accuracy" of the weapon, and the shot should actually land within that circle depending on on the pilot's experience level for that weapon. The higher the experience, the higher the probability it will hit the bull's eye.

[Starne]

Player skill should be paramount, but there should be a degree of spread to all weapons, even energy weapons. Spread should be base on the type of the weapon, the size of the mech firing it(a large mech is a more stable firing platform than a small one.) and how much the mech in question is moving around. A light mech jumping and running around like it's on drugs would be, and should be less accurate than a larger mech slowly plodding around. Obviously, energy weapons, lasers in particular would have the least degree of spread(the spread on lasers would be practically none.). If you miss with those lasers, it's a problem with the computer/chair interface.

Player skill should be the deciding factor, but knowing when to stop moving to take a shot is skill at work.

And Lightfoot, I can't cite a source, but I'm fairly certain Joystick support has been confirmed.

[Razor Kotovsky]

How joystick can not be supported? Heresy!

That's like saying you can't play TF2 with a steering wheel.

Edited by Razor Kotovsky, 04 November 2011 - 10:17 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Amarus Cameron, on 03 November 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

Hmmmm, wanted to put a vote in both pilot skill and probabilistic, I think skill should be involved but also I think as you get hit your mech should rock and throw off your aim as your gyro compensates for the impact.

The 'Mech always rocks when hit, even by lasers. It knocks your aim off. Many pilots specialize in the tactic of keeping your aim skewed by weapon's knock by firing in weapons in succession instead of bursts. That's not probability, that's Steadfast Hand with your aim skewed. So far weapon's knock always included in MechWarrior gameplay. In fact, being hit by a very heavy weapon forces you to work several seconds to re-aim. So I think you are actually asking for Steadfast Hand with weapons-knock. Just saying you may have confused some people since this is default for MechWarrior.

[Lightfoot]

Starne, on 04 November 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:

Player skill should be paramount, but there should be a degree of spread to all weapons, even energy weapons. Spread should be base on the type of the weapon, the size of the mech firing it(a large mech is a more stable firing platform than a small one.) and how much the mech in question is moving around. A light mech jumping and running around like it's on drugs would be, and should be less accurate than a larger mech slowly plodding around. Obviously, energy weapons, lasers in particular would have the least degree of spread(the spread on lasers would be practically none.). If you miss with those lasers, it's a problem with the computer/chair interface.

Player skill should be the deciding factor, but knowing when to stop moving to take a shot is skill at work.

And Lightfoot, I can't cite a source, but I'm fairly certain Joystick support has been confirmed.

Weapons spread is a feature of Steadfast Hand also. The shots go down the path they are aimed at different speeds. If you fire a laser and an auto-cannon together one will miss a lateral moving target. The OP is asking for an additional probablility algorithim to be added to weapons-knock or is asking that weapons-knock be retained since MechWarrior has always had that feature. You are saying that auto-targeting should not be added. With Steadfast Hand the pilot is responsible for hiting the target and taking into account that lasers travel faster than projectiles. Auto-Targeting has never been a feature of MechWarrior multiplayer so......? How about keep Mechwarrior targetting the same as MW2-4?

Last I heard Joystick Support is a high probability, but has not been confirmed yet so you better speak up if you want it.

Edited by Lightfoot, 04 November 2011 - 10:43 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

It seems as though many think a Reticule under the Probabilistic model is/would be as big around as a Mech's CT. That would/should not be the case at all. The Reticule (properly Zoomed in) would have a Hit location circle in the center (roughly the same size as the given weapons projectile (it varies based on type) and also a Secondary Probability Hit Circle that expands and contracts, indicating the amount of deviance that is being predicted by the Mech's targeting Computer, at that exact point in time. The secondary reticule would stay at any given probability size, until the firing conditions changed enough to warrant a visual update from the computer.

As noted already, a cluster of AC's in the CT of a Mech would produce a cluster of damage effect on the target comparable in size to the cluster fired. There would be almost no way to gimble/articulate a tightly grouped pack of 4 AC5's to converge at some far off distance thus producing a pinpoint hit. Not unless each was placed in a different area of the Mech and each them had its own computer and then those would have to be slaved together.

There is no need for random but there is a strong need to eliminate multi weapon firing and having all of them hitting the same point on a target, moving or otherwise, 500m+ down range.

Missile clusters have the same issue. A pack of 10 when fired would simple run into each other enroute to the target as they all vied for the same flight path to where the center reticule had been pointing.

Very interesting discussion btw.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 04 November 2011 - 10:52 AM.

[Amarus Cameron]

Lightfoot, on 04 November 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

The 'Mech always rocks when hit, even by lasers. It knocks your aim off. Many pilots specialize in the tactic of keeping your aim skewed by weapon's knock by firing in weapons in succession instead of bursts. That's not probability, that's Steadfast Hand with your aim skewed. So far weapon's knock always included in MechWarrior gameplay. In fact, being hit by a very heavy weapon forces you to work several seconds to re-aim. So I think you are actually asking for Steadfast Hand with weapons-knock. Just saying you may have confused some people since this is default for MechWarrior.

Not everyone assumes this, though it does weed out good pilots from terrible ones. By prob. I mean the fact that the game must make calculations on how your mech is hit, with what force, and in what direction and then calculate the damage/gyro compensation. I guess that is not as much prob. as it is calculations so oh well I mucked it. Thank you for pointing that out.

Edited by Amarus Cameron, 04 November 2011 - 01:31 PM.

[Sirisian]

I prefer cone of fire probability over reticule offset for handling accuracy. That is when you fire a weapon the reticule circle defining the cone should increase. Whether this is done with a dual reticule system for each arm is up to the designers. It definitely increases the amount of skill and flexibility when controlling accuracy on independent arms. (If a weapon is fired from the body it could just increase both reticules).

Not a fan of sniper accuracy on all weapons. Also that third option sounds like a joke.

[speedreal]

Probabilistic, based on the fact that your have weapons in fixed mounts all over the torso plus the arms. you arnt aiming down the sights of a gun.
pilot skill would require a fixed cross hair for each torso weapon plus two floating for the armes. The controle system for for a true pilot skill game would need to be quite special, two mice and foot pedals atleast. Thats starting to sound like the discription of a mech cockpit, now wheres my coolant vest...

[Eegxeta]

It should depend on the weapon if you have a weapon with massive recoil like the heavy AC then there would be a chance it didn't shoot completely straight but otherwise I think it should be player skill.

[mekabuser]

Ill say this till im blue in the face. Hitting a laterally moving mech at 600m even if YOU are foolish enough to be standing still is not "sniper accurate" Thats rediculous. A number of weapons systems have to be led<gauss ac, ppc> hell most of them... Your *** probablity is instantly achieved with lag. and the difficulty of the shot.

[Pht]

This thread question is almost a red herring.


The pilot chooses the target with his reticule.

The 'Mech than tries to hit that target.


"Pilot skill" is in knowing how well his 'Mech can hit the target he is indicating, in picking the right target, and in picking the best situation for his 'Mech to hit the target he is indicating.


The 'Mech does the actual aiming of the weapons in order to try and hit what the pilot has under his reticule.

So the conclusion is that what you want is to simulate how well a Battletech 'Mech can hit a target in any given set of conditions... and we already have that laid out in detail, ready to go.

The whole "pilot skill" vs "probabilistic" thing is ... off target!

[Tierloc]

I find the WoT recticle annoying as all hell. It may, I don't really know, be a reflection of the model year of the tank so they can provide some tanks that aim faster etc. It may be to simulate manually targeting the tank. It may be a multiplayer balance modifier as it does heavily affect gameplay. I can justify a ton of things, but what "time in a static position" has to do with the accuracy of the cannon is beyond me when it comes to electronic guidance. They make mounts to move and keep things aimed at the same location. They have mounts in particular for telescopes and cameras that come to mind. I can think of vehicle mounts that keep targets while being highly mobile.

If I aim a recticle somewhere, that's where the weapons should fire. Maybe the weapons degrade before getting destroyed, and lose their accuracy. Maybe they misfire (like racs overheated). I think most of the ballistic weapons should have had a chance to misfire or jam.. but opened ended "i fired here" and "the projectile fired 20m to the left" ? No.. that wouldn't happen because I'd replace the weapon next time I had the chance, or calibrate my electronics.

[Pht]

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again -

MW is about simulating what it's like to pilot a BattleMech in the BT universe; and in the BTU the pilot picks the target, and the 'Mech tries to hit that target.

So the pilot picks it and the 'Mech tries to hit it; the 'Mechs ability to hit is determined by what weapons it's firing, it's overall condition and environment, and the actions of the target 'Mech.

MW4 style aiming is not "mechwarrior" at all - it's quake, just slower and with more guns. MW is an first person armored combat sim ... not an FPS.

"Gunnery" skill in the BTU boils down to situational awareness along with the ability to put the reticule on the right target. You have to "think" for your mech more than you have to "twitch" the reticule to point at the pixel you want.

If they botch this up again like mw4 did ... that'll be sad. Very sad.

[Kudzu]

Tierloc, on 07 November 2011 - 09:25 PM, said:

I find the WoT recticle annoying as all hell. It may, I don't really know, be a reflection of the model year of the tank so they can provide some tanks that aim faster etc. It may be to simulate manually targeting the tank. It may be a multiplayer balance modifier as it does heavily affect gameplay. I can justify a ton of things, but what "time in a static position" has to do with the accuracy of the cannon is beyond me when it comes to electronic guidance. They make mounts to move and keep things aimed at the same location. They have mounts in particular for telescopes and cameras that come to mind. I can think of vehicle mounts that keep targets while being highly mobile.

If I aim a recticle somewhere, that's where the weapons should fire. Maybe the weapons degrade before getting destroyed, and lose their accuracy. Maybe they misfire (like racs overheated). I think most of the ballistic weapons should have had a chance to misfire or jam.. but opened ended "i fired here" and "the projectile fired 20m to the left" ? No.. that wouldn't happen because I'd replace the weapon next time I had the chance, or calibrate my electronics.

Grab a friend, a paintball gun, and a pickup truck. First, stand in the truck while it's parked and shoot a target. Not hard, huh? Next, have the friend drive the truck about 20 mph down a road while you stand in the bed with the gun and try to shoot the target. Not easy, but doable, right? Now have him drive off road over some rougher ground at the same speed and try it. Gets a lot harder, right? Now try to hit a moving target while driving off road while your driver is speeding up and slowing down, going over bumps...

Try it, and you'll see what that expanding reticule is representing. The same thing applies to mechs in the BT universe. They aren't graceful Gundams, they are more like lumbering hulks. There's a reason that their scatter and miss completely.

Edited by Kudzu, 09 November 2011 - 07:47 PM.