115 replies to this topic

[Max Grayson]

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 March 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

Ok, ok OT: I have no problem with this, as long as they don't make it literally years to earn today's best gear.

I agree, the length of grind, for non-payers or non-"premium" is always the issue. The balance needs to be right.

but if you work for the city don't you always have spare time to run a few games during the day

[Carebear]

APB premium 10 euros, and then couple gun/car/whatever for month another 10 euros. That works for me. Its indeed hard to get it right, because how the hell devs know how much people are willing to pay averagely, because they need money after all to pump out content.

I'd say those of you who are dirty rich take their money! Yea, sell all kind of cosmetic stuff to those who're swimming in the cash.

Edited by Carebear, 30 March 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[Five by Five]

Angelicon, on 30 March 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

I am REALLY glad you aren't on the dev team, and that they've already stated you never lose your mechs. If they get destroyed in battle, you pay cbills to repair them.

HaaHaaHaa! Yeah, I heard. Really #8 was two fold. One, it gives a reason to retreat, but if you have to pay c-bills to buy a new mech or pay c-bills to repair you old mech, both actually achieve that effect. But the second intended effect of making it possible to loose a mech, was to open that mech up to being salvaged. And salvaged mechs would be a way for other players to get into different mechs with out having to buy.

Most of us were planning to drop $40-$60 on the next MechWarrior game anyway, and then another similar chunk every year or two for each of the follow-on expansions. So I've got no problem with paying.

Now that being said, I'd like the pay system to be somewhat fun and help increase immersion. That's why I came up with the penny ante indeed. Nobody worries about loosing too much money playing penny ante poker, it's a good way to spend any evening with friends drinking beer, and have some fun loosing or winning just a few bucks.

So the same concept here, if there is going to be a pay system, let's have some fun with it.

Say, have the Dev's said anything about salvage? (I seem to remember hearing something but can't recall what it was)

Edited by five by five, 30 March 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Five by Five]

TopDawg, on 30 March 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

(and sorry for potentially derailing the thread slightly, but game balance kind of ties directly into the pay model)

I couldn't agree more. The pay model is intrinsic to the game and immersion in the game and ultimately balance, enjoyability, and longevity. There is no way to separate the game and the payment model.

That's why the payment model aught to be a little fun and immersive.

Beside if things are cheap, destroyable, and also salvageable, then there are all kinds of options for an in-game market to eventually be developed. People with money or time to grind buy mechs and equipment, lose some of it in matches, win some of it back in matches, sell the extra to buy stuff they don't want. House pilots get their stuff for free, and some of that feeds the market. The dev's can tweak how often equipment is destroyed vs salvage to affect availability on the used market and thus demand in the new market (which is revenue for the game).

Edited by five by five, 30 March 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[wpmaura]

I would be ok with paying for new mechs as long as they were not pwn mobiles.

pay for skins, expanded storage and bays.


will be willing to pay for anything except gold ammo

[00dlez]

I believe the Devs are working towards everything being available to everybody, but are mainly concerned with the cbill/XP rewards to scale the way they want to.

In my hopes and dreams, XP/cbills will be awarded in such a way that the average player playing 10-15 hrs a week (pretty average I'd say) is able to unlock things as they are released, able to keep up with the latest and greatest equipment.

Limiting factors for F2P might be:
-No Cosmetics
-Our mech bay (maybe 4-6 slots) can't hold everything we might want, but its ample to support good game play
-Slower/longer grinds to desired mechs/equipment

That really should be it, IMHO. The second my equipment can't beat my opponents equipment merely because they paid and I didn't, then I'm out.

I fully intend to drop 40-50$+ after release, might wait a week or month to do so just so I can be sure what I pay for is what I really want...
That is of course assuming that Timmy Teenager and his side-kick Mommy's Plastic haven't made me rage quit for having impotent equipment.

[LackofCertainty]

What I want to be available for in game money:
-Every mech and variant
-Every module
-Every weapon

What I want to be available for real money:
-Every mech and variant
-Every module
-Every weapon
-Xp booster
-C-bill booster
-Logo/skins (aesthetic items)

What I personally will pay for:
-Logo/skins (aesthetic items)

Basically the league of legends model as so many people have already said. Oh, and one more thing I guess.

Things I will pay for, if the devs make "Premium ammo," "Premium Mechs," "Premium weapons," "Premium modules," or any garbage like that:
-Nothing.


F2P games are awesome and I support the ones that I play. P2W games are insidious leeches, and they will get nothing but salt from me.

[verybad]

Quote

What you are talking about is basically one free2play title and one pay2play title. Both is totally fine, but if you mix them, the free2play model will totally lose its appeal and it will morph into a pay2win title.

No, you shouldnt' have to have a particular mech in order to win if it's a skill based game. The mechs bring different values to the game certainly, but if every weight has value in game rather than a grind for Assaults, you aren't going to have to be in the shiniest biggest mech out there in order to win. They've stated this beyond count.

People are confusing having all the toys with being good. The Free to play model won't lose it's apeal to people that want the particular items enough to pay for them.

Quoted myself below to separate thios hiue all of text into something reasonable

Quote

Say you start the game, you play for a while in a Hunchback, and decide you want a new mech. The mech costs *random speculation* 9,95 for a Devastator, you uptech it to double heatsinks and ER PPCs, max it out, this comes to another 4.95. You buy some cosmetics, and a Hula girl, another 2.95
..
SO now you've spent 18 bucks on a game, you've played it for 70 hours over 2 months. In that time frame you've also bought lots of modules using instore cbills for your skill set, and skilled up your Hunchback to where you're death incarnate in it. You've ranged over the Inner Sphere, fought battles in all the Great Houses. You get in that Devastator, more firepower than you know what to do with really, and the thing draw's Recon supported LRM fire like a moth to a flame. You find yourself dying much faster than in the old Hunchie, The Dev turns like a pig, and it's a much easier target.

Now you hear a rumbling of war, a new force has been invading The Lyrans, Dracs, and Rasalhaguians. Thar's lots of work...

Clans are released! You buy a package deal of Clan mechs (3 mechs, 19.95, prerelease and give up your old Merc faction. Now you've got a MadCat, a Nova, and a Dire Wolf. You fight across the new maps also released at the same time as the clans, you come across a Draconis Combine world and get challenged to a Duel by a guy named verybad riding in a Dragon.

ONOSE! He beats you in a a Dragon, though your supperior firepower mangled his mech, that nube has been playing since day one in a Dragon, and has a complete skill set for that mech (available only through playing), and extra modules, he's in the Grand Dragon variant, whcih is faster than your Timber Wolf. So you rage quit that game and go off and sulk for a while, but you can't help but come back. Hula girl calls you.

The next day you run across verybad, also now apparently unable to resist buying some clan stuff, and you team kill him accidently, but later on you play a bit more with him, and realize that with the F2P business model, you've been playing a game for over 100 hours now, and you've spent about 35-40 buck. You've bought only what you wanted, and you've had a ****laod of fun.

You also could have ground for a lot of the toys, but that would have taken mroe time. Or you could be a hoarder/collector, and spent $500.00 on havign a complate set of everything. You worked two jobs in order to have all the battletech books, and now you're gonna have all the Mechwarrior on line stuff, EVERYTHING, you must have it all. You don't have time to PLAY the game, you need to work mroe in order to pay for the nest release!

If I get a Dragon at start, and grind for all the stuff, while someone else gets a few things and has a load of fun, while a third person spends all their money on getting everything available...it's all of our choices.

Success isn't based on the mech you're in. Some mechs have more firepower, some are higher tech, some are bigger, some are faster.

We'll see of course, but expecting things like mechs or higher tech to be free/only available through the grinding C-Bill line is not reasonable.

Edited by verybad, 30 March 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[Oswin Aurelius]

You, sir, deserve everything, ever. ^^^

[Pvt Dancer]

I do not recall the Devs saying that there will be salvage. The Devs have said you can't lose anything you earn or buy in game and that even if your mech is destroyed, it will be repaired for free to bare minimum functionality. This leads me to believe there will be no salvage, because A) I can not see people getting things for free and You do not have to worry about who gets what, muchless C) Getting anartificial boost to your c-bills with the selling of salvage.

I agree that there are some unknown unknowns that would greatly add in this thread. It revolves around gameplay and even match maker. Heck, I think it is even worth noting that a Dev /hasn't/ commented on this because they probably either feel the info is out there or might still be working on it... we are not even in beta yet, so figuring out how long it takes to grind something may not really be established.

I do think that most of us are on the same page though concerning balance, and I think the Devs are there as well. The good thing about MWO is that is can learn from those other F2P games and see/figure out what works and what will not work.

Thank you all for posting so far... I have enjoyed reading it!

[00dlez]

Pvt Dancer, on 30 March 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

I do not recall the Devs saying that there will be salvage. The Devs have said you can't lose anything you earn or buy in game and that even if your mech is destroyed, it will be repaired for free to bare minimum functionality. This leads me to believe there will be no salvage, because A) I can not see people getting things for free and You do not have to worry about who gets what, muchless C) Getting anartificial boost to your c-bills with the selling of salvage.

I agree that there are some unknown unknowns that would greatly add in this thread. It revolves around gameplay and even match maker. Heck, I think it is even worth noting that a Dev /hasn't/ commented on this because they probably either feel the info is out there or might still be working on it... we are not even in beta yet, so figuring out how long it takes to grind something may not really be established.

I do think that most of us are on the same page though concerning balance, and I think the Devs are there as well. The good thing about MWO is that is can learn from those other F2P games and see/figure out what works and what will not work.

Thank you all for posting so far... I have enjoyed reading it!

I don't think there will be salvage (beyond cbills) because if a battle yields a PPC, 2 Medium Lasers, and a LRM 5 rack... how does that get divided amongst the whole team?

[Peiper]

00dlez, on 30 March 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I don't think there will be salvage (beyond cbills) because if a battle yields a PPC, 2 Medium Lasers, and a LRM 5 rack... how does that get divided amongst the whole team?

I was thinking about this possible eventuality. Here's how I would answer that: it has to do with command/loyalties.

With the Houses, being classic-ish military organizations, you would earn points from promotions, performance, and time-in-service. These points would create a priority list on who gets dibs on what salvage. All salvage would be distributed, but weight class and tech level would determine how much each salvaged component/item would be worth. So, those who have earned themselves higher points via rank, time-in, performance would more likely get dibs on heavier gear - which by nature would cost more - and they would be able to upgrade and mantain their heavy and assault mechs. The newer/lower scoring/lower ranking members would still get gear as it would be kind of round-robin. Once the PPC's and heavy gyros or whatever have been snatched up by the heavy/assault high ranking people, there would still be plenty of smaller sized equipment around to trick out their own mechs. As long as each person only gets to pick one piece of equipment at a time, and there is enough so that everyone gets at least one piece of equipment to use/trade/sell, then everyone will come out ahead.

As far as merc units go, and being a leader of a merc group I'm very concerned with this as I want to reward people fairly, The highest commanding officer would have control over salvage distribution. As the house players would have an uniform set-up and command structure, the merc corps are left to their own devices over command and control (what I figure from the interviews). In my case, I would consider something similar to what I've heard of called "Dragon Points." Though I have no direct experience with it, it comes from games where people run dungeons/raids as a guild, and each time they show up to fight, and perform various tasks or whatever, they earn dragon points. These points are kept track of on a guild website and are used to lay claim to various treasures that have been picked up along the way. This would require something like a guild bank, or some other way to keep track of total salvage taken. This would allow for players to save up points to trade in for specific pieces of gear they want over time, instead of getting stuck with whatever pieces drop on a particular battle.
Other considerations are the idea that all the gear could be sold for C-Bills, and distributed evenly among those who fought each battle.
There has been mention of a bidding system in the interviews for mercs to take planets as their own (or for a house?). I'm not sure what we would bid with, whether its forces like a clan batchall, or by bidding c-bills to a house coffer for the right to claim it, or what? These planets are supposed to give significant bounty or something when taken and held. If it's the case of a C-Bill auction type bidding, then the merc commander can set aside a certain amount of c-bills generated by selling salvage so that the whole merc corp could have a chance of the advantages given by holding a planet.

As far as lone wolves are concerned.... It seems to me that as free agents, they would be filling in the ranks of merc corps and house forces on a needs basis, in which case they will be able to either competitively sell their services, or look for open contracts (battles that need to fill up). As a potential force leader, I would hope to have a say in who joins us in battles from among the pool of wild cards, er, lone wolves there are out there based upon past experiences of running with each one. (I'd have a black book full of player names ranking them by agreeability and battle prowess or something). In any case, the lone wolves would most likely be paid in c-bills only - or, be able to participate in a salvage claim. Seems to me a certain percentage value of total salvage would be appropriate. Example: 1/12 total value of all salvage taken per lone wolf, per battle. (12 v 12 battles.)

And now that I've typed all that, I wonder if what we type in these forums even matters... I guess I'm getting grumpy, eh?

[Peiper]

Oh, I guess the OP was asking about what real money would buy versus in game wealth.

Personally, I'd rather see this as a subscription - manditory or optional - than a possible pay-to-win game. I've played Battlestar Galactica Online, and while you COULD earn enough premium money in game to get whatever you wanted, the time to earn the same amount that you could by with real cash money could be days worth of grinding away. At least the best upgraded space-ships you could possibly get require you to earn special merits via PVP fights, but even those ships are prohibitively expensive to buy to upgrade to begin with. This pay-to-win method causes a lot of resentment among many members - especially those who've dumped months into the game to find someone a tenth of their level riding around in better ships.

SO, here's what I would do vs. here's what's more likely to happen in a more than less ideal situation.

Optional Subscriptions: Everyone would get the same chance to build up mechs, kit them out with gear, and earn experience, paying or not. Paying players would have a boost to overall C-Bill aquisition and/or discounts in the market, experience bonuses - say 5% faster experience gathering.

What subscribing would do is open up a variety of cosmetic changes from custom pilot ID's (nose art), different color lasers/effects, metallic color overlays for existing colors (so as not to lose the unit colors, just have them look more bad-ars) and bizarre colors for lone wolf mechs.

______________

With no subscription option, cash money could be spent on consmetics as the paragraph immediately above describes. It could buy up to a maximum of 5% bonus experience, and a maximum c-bill aquisition or market discount of 20%. It would also give you a certain amount of trade-in vouchers. These could be used to trade in existing gear or mechs for equal value mechs and parts or C-Bills rather than the typical gouging that would take place in a marketplace.

What cash money COULD NOT buy you is C-Bills, experience, gear, or mechs. While it would give you the perks of getting faster earnings in experience and c-bills, it should never allow for direct purchase of c-bills or experience. If this game is truly going to be fair to all, then no one, paying or not, should feel that they HAVE to pay to keep up with other players. Bonuses as described above would be acceptable because it means that the paying players would still have to play, earn loyalty, and bust their hump to get the ranks, xp, and C-bills they want which would help keep people from crying foul. After all, paying players are paying for the free players to play and should get something tangible for it.

Another option is stables: If, let's say, each player is normally limited to having 4 mechs in a stable; maybe the paying players could have extra slots in a stable, and/or extra total tonnage aloted for storing of salvaged parts, chassies, etc. for eventual building - rather than buying new or used mechs - from the market.

Conclusion: Make it an optional subscription for the above perks. Barring that, spending money on the game should keep fairness in mind .

If I am going to tell my friends about a free-to-play game, and I tell them that if you spend money, you'll be so much better off than others, many of my friends would look upon the game with suspition and doubt. Especially as I'm working to bring many of my friends with me from BSGO to MWO. The devs in BSGO have made it really tough on non-paying players. Likewise, because they already gouge the paying players to keep up their profits, the paying players stop paying and the devs can't afford to bring out anything new and the whole game and the players all suffer.

DEV'S, please consider an optional subscription over paying-to-win. PLEASE.

Edited by Peiper, 31 March 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[FERAL TIGER]

00dlez, on 30 March 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

In my hopes and dreams, XP/cbills will be awarded in such a way that the average player playing 10-15 hrs a week (pretty average I'd say) is able to unlock things as they are released, able to keep up with the latest and greatest equipment.

I hope it's the same, where players who don't have time to grind at a game still are able to aspire to competitive equipment and a mech they are interested in. I understand that loyalty to the game will yield better outcomes than what the average player will receive, but that's as it should be.

I'm ok with spending some money after launch, but it's not going to get to the point where it becomes a unique line in my expense report.

[soulfire]

It's still too early for anyone to work themelves into a lather on how they will take your money and what it will get for you. They are prob still debating things. Dont be suprised if you see this form of online gaming taking over from subscription. Think of it this way though people tend to be lazy and in subscription if you have it all autopay you might complain about things but generally you keep playing and they keep getting the money. In the Free to play or whatever they call this if they introduce something that angers people, people just won't pay. They dont have to look up the website where their accounting info is search where it is and tell them to stop their subscription so forth We just think well I am not buying anything more from you, I'll continue to play because I can but no money until you fix this stuff.I think this will make them more attentive to their player base.
Game company tend to like it because I bet they actually make more money off of players at the start. They dont have to deal with certain people selling you cbills out side of the game because they control it all. That is one thing I have not seen at all in World of Tanks no gold farmers. Its a closed economy. No hackers trying to get your account because there is nothing they can sell. Nothing is transferable. If you want to get something in the game but dont have the time to play all the hours you buy it yourself by converting your cash to the in game currancy. Only the gaming company can give you the currancy. It is such a blessing too. In wow I dont remember how many people I know got their accounts hacked just so the hacker could sell off their stuff transfer that gold to others and then sell the gold to people for real world cash.

Edited by soulfire, 31 March 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[Volthorne]

Peiper, on 31 March 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

DEV'S, please consider an optional subscription over paying-to-win. PLEASE.

Sorry, what? Subscriptions CAN be a good thing, but they're generally only applied to games that you have to buy ANYWAY. It's because, once you buy the game, the devs have handed you this big "F*** YOU" sign which basically locks you out of the game unless you continue to pay them, and they can pump out whatever garbage they want. Sometimes, this isn't the case (RIFT is a good example, that game was pretty good), but most of the time, the game is garbage (WoW and SW:ToR come to mind, first and foremost - WoW because it's WoW, and SW:ToR because it's a generic clone). The only time I've seen a subscription F2P title is Runescape, and we all know what a piece of garbage THAT is.

I say stick with a F2P model like League or TF2. It's simple, easy, and completely balanced.

[Carebear]

Mechs are so cool, people would pay full game price. I hope this works out well and devs know what they're doing. Mechs arent some "soldier, ww2" ****.

Edited by Carebear, 01 April 2012 - 03:06 AM.

[empath]

soulfire, on 31 March 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

It's still too early for anyone to work themelves into a lather on how they will take your money and what it will get for you

Wow, you really haven't been paying much attention to the discussions here in the past four months, have you? <j/k> I've seen spittle flying out of my monitor from debate over this (and many other details) for...(wow, has it been six months already?) ever since PGI first opened up this forum. It's a bit 'bolting the door after the horse is bolted' to try to keep people from...well being people.

BUT, that out of the way, the rest of your post is insightful on the whole 'game payment model' discussion; props!


As for me?

~I heartily endorse RW$ for cosmetics (I want Jee-Hun's soundtrack(s) playing on my cockpit audio system, dammit! ) and additional storage space (bigger hangar for us completionist pack-rats ).

~I guardedly support the idea of purchasing XP/C-Bill 'booster' items that permit increased gain (10% more maybe?) and by that same tack, paying a recurring subscription for the same effect, which is just automating the 'buy another booster every time it runs out'.

~The issue of 'squads' and clans being available subscription perk or other paid method might be okay - I have tended to be a lonewolf in F2P games, so I'm not very knowledgable on the issues surrounding that.

~Straight-out RW$ purchase of existing equipment or skills still attainable by in-game means would make me worry.

~RW$ purchase of equipment/skills NOT attainable by in-game means would make me leave.
(then again, it's been almost explicitly stated by PGI that they won't allow this, so I guess it's a moot point.)

Edited by empath, 01 April 2012 - 07:20 AM.

[Opus]

Edited by Opus, 01 April 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

I've been saying this for a while, now, but I'd pay good money for some Star League era 'Mechs, weapons and other components - by the time those clanners are introduced to gameplay, these won't be so overpowered, anyway - as well as advanced 'Mech customization and aesthetics - heat sink type and tonnage, paintjobs, computer voices, whatever - though I may also end up paying for a premium account if it speeds up progression.

I think that's all fine and reasonable.