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Mean Catapult-K2 setup! (had to post this)


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#21 Melcyna

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:31 AM

View PostM60, on 27 October 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

We all know what its like to get hit with an AC20, it shakes your screen and disorients you momentarily.. now times that by two, ya its like getting hit in the head with a steady stream of big rocks.

In response to Kurayami

how often do you hit moving mechs in the head with a gaussapault? Not everyone stands still. And if someone gets up close to you, your gauss's all of a sudden become less valuable and accurate. AND are you really going to argue that guass's up close will do more damage then an two ac20's?

Just to put more information into the discussion,

Both AC-20 and Gauss have the exact same impulse (ie: screen shake effect)... the same with all other AC in fact (MG don't count) hence why AC-2 is very good at suppression since it does the SAME SHAKE as ANY AC, or Gauss or PPC per shot and fire very fast.

AC-20 therefore have no inherent advantage versus Gauss for the purpose of disorienting someone with the impulse shake as it has the same rate of fire, and the same impulse.

And for the next part, why would the gauss be any less accurate up close??? That was the main problem with gauss that we've been debating for ages, gauss is JUST AS GOOD at point blank as it is at 600m except when we had the problem with shot convergence. Otherwise however Gauss is just as effective in close range as any other AC weapon baring ROF disadvantage which the AC-20 had none.

So AC-20 main advantage is the higher alpha per shot versus Gauss at the cost of slower projectile which shouldn't be too bad at short range, more crit slot, shorter effective range, and lower ammo count per ton.

edit: Oh, and MASSIVE heat buildup per shot comparatively of course, so while you fire the AC-20 alternately to regulate the heat, the gauss can just fire non stop, grouped together or what not as long as his ammo holds without a care of his heat...

Edited by Melcyna, 27 October 2012 - 03:49 AM.


#22 Kurayami

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:34 AM

View PostM60, on 27 October 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

...

it comes down to your own ego just like everything else - you think you can - you use. results differ.

anything bigger than cicada and closer than 1.3k - im not a very good sniper but still i manage things somehow. recent changes in termal made it harder but not so much harder. and even if i miss - i have way more time.

no its not - it will still be more accurate than ac20 - thanks to netcode problems and fast moving slug. i never argued that sheer numbers are higher - im just pointing difficulties with getting this numbers in actual battle.

i do own this variant just like every other variant of CTPL -it have bigger engine with less armor and ammo. for fun mostly - playing ninja in battlemech is not my thing. and also please stop comparing this to gausspult. this 2 variants fills completely different roles and before "tiring" you need to actually find and get into cqc - who will tire who before this will happen is an open question.

im slightly trolling because of 2 things. 1st i lost count of incarnations of said build. 2nd tone of post and replies. maybe it is sounded ok in english - than im sorry. but translated into russian this is sound too much like boasting. and even though - a healthy dose of sarcasm is a good thing.

yes. on a very fast or very stealthy mount or coming in ridiculous quantities. is this build fast? nope. is it stealthy given current game mechanics and players? nope. second most popular would be "melt it face" with carpet bombing but this is different topic altogether.

OPPOSITE would be right word. ALTERNATIVE is something fulfilling the same role with different means - ac20 long range fire support\sniper weapon?

this is a very strict, limited, demanding and nonversatile variant for those who want exactly one thing - boom of dual ac 20. it is possible, legit etc but not generally used or even needed.


View PostGen0, on 27 October 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

...

except devs changing things on regular basis so mech on paper is just a mech on paper - it will be legit but actuall performance may differ.

im not - im just pointing flaws in represented design. every laser boat desing represented so far had this buffer. your current design not.

telling that this fit can kill something dont have anything with anyhthing then by your own logic - that is what i meant telling about c1. give me results of 100 battles - that will matter.

currently dhs in your build work like singles - just like dhs in mine. so? working dhs will ease heat and only. what about other minuses?

oh please what kind of mechs do you think im fighting most of the time? what kind of mech do you think i use most of the time? do you really think i dont know where it is or how to avoid being hit?

what im telling is "your build have flaws an big ones" what you telling me is "dont care -have dual ac20".

Edited by Kurayami, 27 October 2012 - 03:45 AM.


#23 skoot

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:54 AM

Just tried out this setup with worse heat (1.36) and a bit more armour (327).

In a team this is a superb strike assist - Atlas walks out, lays down suppression and draws damage, KAC-20 walks about and wastes someone.

Might try it in pug later.

#24 ollo

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:13 AM

View PostGen0, on 27 October 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

1.Except I can, as all the information and the actual items are in the game right now, the effects that they are supposed to have just arent functional. That means I can build a mech on paper.


No you can't, read the update on DHS - they're still deciding how they want them to work, which is a WTF in itself.

#25 M60

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:12 AM

View PostKurayami, on 27 October 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:


1.OPPOSITE would be right word. ALTERNATIVE is something fulfilling the same role with different means - ac20 long range fire support\sniper weapon?

2.this is a very strict, limited, demanding and nonversatile variant for those who want exactly one thing - boom of dual ac 20. it is possible, legit etc but not generally used or even needed.

3.im just pointing flaws in represented design. every laser boat desing represented so far had this buffer. your current design not.

4.oh please what kind of mechs do you think im fighting most of the time? what kind of mech do you think i use most of the time? do you really think i dont know where it is or how to avoid being hit?

5.what im telling is "your build have flaws an big ones" what you telling me is "dont care -have dual ac20".




1. Maybe English should be your first language if your going to correct English speaking gamers....

alternative - means 'one instead of the other' or 'allowing or necessitating a choice between two or more things'

So alternative IS a correct choice in words..

2. It is a very strict design and demanding of skill and tactics. Non versatile??? seriously? So if im averaging about 500 damage and at least one kill a game, is that non versatile?? As i said before i can stare an atlas in the face and have enough firepower to fight back. Plus ac20's are more then enough for taking out hunchbacks and centurions.

3. What are you trying to say?? The translation program your using is terrible.

4. Maybe you should put those amazing skills and knowledge you have to use with this variant Because, before you made it sound like all mechs were static targets staring you in the face...

5. "dont care, have ac20's" ??? Thats not what im saying at all, once again, English as a first language would be useful to you in this debate. I gave you an example of this K2 with AC20's and also told you WHY it is great. Go back and read the initial post.

This might help you...

Initial- Existing or occurring at the beginning: "initial impression"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

View PostMelcyna, on 27 October 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:


1.Both AC-20 and Gauss have the exact same impulse (ie: screen shake effect)... the same with all other AC in fact (MG don't count) hence why AC-2 is very good at suppression since it does the SAME SHAKE as ANY AC, or Gauss or PPC per shot and fire very fast.

2.AC-20 therefore have no inherent advantage versus Gauss for the purpose of disorienting someone with the impulse shake as it has the same rate of fire, and the same impulse.

3. Oh, and MASSIVE heat buildup per shot comparatively of course, so while you fire the AC-20 alternately to regulate the heat, the gauss can just fire non stop, grouped together or what not as long as his ammo holds without a care of his heat...


1.I've used dual and triple ac2's, ppcs, and various other weapons for suppression effects. But those weapons do exactly that, suppress. The AC20's do that and then some. If you would stare a cat down that's firing two ac20's and brush it off, you would be stupid.

2. But they do... faster "suppression" rate with higher amounts of damage when alternating. I dont know where your getting this "same rate of fire" from..they don't. Alternating AC20's will output more damage and suppression then grouped gauss's hands down. WHICH is how this argument started in the first place....

3. Depends on how you play and how much heat sinks you have in this variant. The trade off is, SLIGHTLY more heat for lots more punch. If you dont spam your attacks, you can put mechs down rather quickly. Like i said, most mechs will back away in a CQC fight when dual AC20's are punching them in the face.

#26 MrMasakari

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:13 AM

I think the Gauss cat still is in most peoples hearts, just because of the range bonus as well as very similar damage (IIRC anyway)

#27 M60

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:26 AM

Once again... I wasnt trying to "replace" anything.. I thought me and my buddy would post something we thought was pretty cool but it got dumped on by some troll who took offense to our variant... Maybe hes upset he didnt think of it first...

Edited by M60, 27 October 2012 - 05:28 AM.


#28 M60

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:29 AM

Ido think more ppl will catch onto this though and probably build a more effecient version of ours.

#29 Kurayami

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:05 AM

View PostM60, on 27 October 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

...

original "oh look mean design with... DUAL AC20 its kewl we know it!" and then you started to compare this with sniper k2.

based on English wiki and vocabulary. it would be alternative variant of k2 not "alternative to gausscat" like you tend to sell it.

this again? so ignoring that it have limited mobility, limited range, limited ammo supply, specific chassis issues and such while repeating "dual ac 20 punch" mantra is not "don't care - have dual ac20"? what can it do against lights? nothing. what can it do against faster and agile cents\hbk? nothing - don't even start on dual ac20 if you think that pilot have enough skill to hit than i say cent pilot have enough skill to dodge but my argument is backed up by superior mobility of those while you just boasting about single salvo damage - thing completely irrelevant to chance of hit. anything can fight back - efficiency is the question! my brawler atlas will send you to oblivion with first salvo - and you will have it because you need to come up close and personal to me. read your posts - aside from "oh god dual ac20" there is no valid points at all.

im pretty tired of this kind of one sided debates. go ahead promote it - if it ever hit the masses, after month or so we'll see who was wrong.

#30 Melcyna

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:28 AM

View PostM60, on 27 October 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

1.I've used dual and triple ac2's, ppcs, and various other weapons for suppression effects. But those weapons do exactly that, suppress. The AC20's do that and then some. If you would stare a cat down that's firing two ac20's and brush it off, you would be stupid.

2. But they do... faster "suppression" rate with higher amounts of damage when alternating. I dont know where your getting this "same rate of fire" from..they don't. Alternating AC20's will output more damage and suppression then grouped gauss's hands down. WHICH is how this argument started in the first place....

3. Depends on how you play and how much heat sinks you have in this variant. The trade off is, SLIGHTLY more heat for lots more punch. If you dont spam your attacks, you can put mechs down rather quickly. Like i said, most mechs will back away in a CQC fight when dual AC20's are punching them in the face.

Look, you can try and spin it however way you like it...

my point was, if you wanted to SUPPRESS him with the impulse shock, you could just alternate your gauss as well and you essentially do the EXACT same impulse shock as the AC-20 at the EXACT same rate.

except your projectile travel nearly twice faster, and you can do this up to 700m while still doing effective damage and you can do this indefinitely until the ammo runs out without ever over heating.

And if you REALLY want to suppress him and perma knock lock him, you'd be mounting AC-2 instead which can put someone permanently in impulse lock until it overheats or runs out of ammo.

Slightly more heat??

it produces 7 heat PER SHOT, the equivalent of a LARGE LASER heat... vs 1 heat per gauss shot.

that gauss is producing 14% of your heat buildup, which incidentally thanks to the wonder of endo steel and DHS, we now can jam the gausscat with gauss AND more, an energy weapon even to make use of the spare heat dissipation.

<------->
Let me give you the number so you stop probing in the dark with guesstimates...

AC-20
20 dmg, 7 Heat, 4 second cycle, 270m effective range, 750 projectile speed, 1 impulse shock

Gauss
15 dmg, 1 Heat, 4 second cycle, 660m effective range, 1200 projectile speed, 1 impulse shock

The AC-20 produces 33% more damage than the gauss, at the cost of SEVEN times the heat generated per shot, less than half the effective range, and slightly over half the projectile speed.... and more crit slot occupied, and less ammo per ton but for the ammo we can pretend that the higher damage per shot with AC-20 compensates the lower ammo count.

That is not to say it's a bad weapon, far from it... especially since it has the highest alpha in the game for a direct fire weapon... and alpha damage is one of the most vital stat in a shooter of any type, but you pay a MASSIVE cost for this when compared to gauss rifle which are far more flexible and effective in more circumstances (hence why gauss rifle is in need of a rebalance).

Edited by Melcyna, 27 October 2012 - 06:41 AM.


#31 M60

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:39 AM

Actually it was not me who started to compare but think what you want...and keeping the team mentality in mind, your much more ``efficient`` moving in with your team.

And the reason I say ``dual ac20 punch`` is because it deals massive amounts of damage which i why i built it in the first place. Yes you can size up with an atlas but im comparing apples with apples right now. Lets not get side tracked

I just played a round 10min ago..no lie... 620 damage 3 kills...

The game before that 359 damage, one kill

It seems to be working for me, but again...SKILL is required.

This game is very well balanced. You think that speed will rule this game and destroy all heavy mechs .. "superior mobility" as you put it. Well, with speed comes a sacrifice of firepower and vice versa for superior firepower. SO in the end this argument is going no where (which i never intended it to be an argument, trolls are going to be trolls i guess). All you can do is try the variant, improve it if you can and have fun. I never tried to "sell" anything, just thought i could provide an option and/or alternative to the K2 and/or Gausscat.

Go back to playing that crack monkey twitch shooter...hawken

EDIT-And what... you think i don't go to battletech wiki???? stop ASSUMING my little Russian friend. You keep digging yourself deeper into this argument. JUST STOP and go and play something else. Go and troll the forums somewhere else....just take it for what it is and move on.

Edited by M60, 27 October 2012 - 06:42 AM.


#32 Enervation

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:33 PM

btw, this build is generally refered to as the whackapult.
it should be a bit more viable with endo and dhs than it was in early beta, but if you choose this as your flagship mech i call you a brave and foolish pilot :)

#33 Melcyna

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:17 PM

It's not exactly foolish... in that in the hand of a good pilot the build IS LETHAL, it's not new either... we've seen AC-20 totting K2 since the start of the K2 introduction when ppl are testing the water of what K2 can do.

double AC-20 will ruin your day quickly if they get into range...

But you pay a very dear cost for it...

in particular, given how GOOD gauss is (even after the nerf), it's basically a less efficient build overall since AC-20 is far more restrictive than gauss both in crit slot used, heat management, range, and... well pretty much EVERYTHING else except for it's one sole strength... ie: alpha damage.

It so happens however that it's alpha damage is high enough (highest in the game for now and will be until the introduction of other direct fire heavy weapon in the future) that in the right condition (however limited it's performance range is) it can dish out immense punishment.

But that's ALL it's got going for it... hence why gauss cat is still the most popular build by far, since gauss are simply far more flexible and unlike AC-20 it's capable of putting the hurt from anywhere between point blank to 700m (and much more actually, it can hit all the way to 1000m and still do appreciable damage despite the damage falloff over it's effective range) downrange without a problem with practically no heat worth mentioning.

now that DHS, endo, etc are in the game, gauss cat has even more flexibility allowing it to mount additional weapon, even energy weapon without adding heatsinks since the gauss itself produces no heat worth mentioning.

#34 Killian Axe

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:47 PM

My K2 Gausscat would smoke this build in all of about 20 seconds. This guy obviously doesn't understand weapon maximum ranges.

#35 Mastodonic

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:03 AM

You aren't flanking anything at 55kph

#36 Melcyna

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:20 AM

He probably doesn't actually intend to... essentially his plan is either wait for them to come into his range (defensive battle) or wait till the assault that plod their way into the battle at 50kph anyway to enter the fray first so he can then join the fight and come close to them without being blown to little pieces which would otherwise happen trying to close the distance with the enemy at such slow speed.

which is valid, and workable...

the only problem is that meanwhile the gauss cat is already opening fire 5 minutes ago at the start of the skirmish battle from the longest engagement range dealing 30 damage each salvo if he's a dual gauss cat, so in the case of a fight where his atlas is plodding along to the frontline, he is forced to wait behind it until the atlas engage them or someone else engage them whereas the gauss cat are SHOOTING the AC-20 cat's atlas at maximum zoom and tearing it's armor apart.

if we pretend that 2 sides have an atlas and 1 cat each, one of them a gauss cat the other an AC-20 cat... then the only time the atlas + AC-20 cat will win is if they can force the other side to enter into their range at close quarter with them ready and waiting.

otherwise the side with atlas and gauss cat will start plinking away at the other side long before the AC-20 cat and his atlas partner can effectively do damage. By the time they get into range the AC-20 cat atlas partner in all likelihood will not survive, and despite the 10 damage point advantage the AC-20 cat have in close range (dual AC-20 vs dual gauss comparison), he can't compensate the damage the other side already dished out before he closed the range to AC-20 reach.

it's POSSIBLE to work out the limitation and setup the situation where AC-20 can be effective, the weapon IS GOOD in the right situation, it's just not as good as a gauss overall, and much more restrictive.

Edited by Melcyna, 29 October 2012 - 12:27 AM.


#37 ebea51

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 07:18 PM

The pinacle of Catapult duchebaggery is the twin Gauss build.
Nothing scream more NOOB then the twin Gauss build.

Twin AC20 build earns more respect, so does 4x PPC.

#38 Davers

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 07:50 PM

Remember guys, only cookie cutter builds are allowed. No one can use or like anything new, different, or unique. There is only one way to set up each chassis, and anyone deviating from it should be mocked until they fall in line with everyone else.

#39 Cpt Grunge

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:53 PM

I'l check out it out when I get the money.

#40 Mack1

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:45 PM

Guy posts newish build on forum to help fellow Mechwarriors

Arrogant badmannered little tossers troll the crap out of the thread and remind everyone why the Internet is such a horrible place.

All you had to do was say it's not really as good as gausskat imo because........anyway thx for the build.





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