265 replies to this topic

[Gozer]

Lucifer Black, on 01 April 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

On a practical note, why would the devs hamstring themselves by marrying themselves to the lore? Every announcement is preempted by the lore, the result of every major battle is known in advance and who in their right mind is going to join a faction preordained to be annihilated? This goes beyond my personal preference , I think this is an issue that will seriously affect the long term viability of the game.

I would point to all of our friendly space vikings who have signed up to be pretty well messed up for the next couple of years once the clans arrive.

Honestly I don't see lots of major "scenarios" being a part of this games scope and gameplay. We'll be doing random matches they results "effect" the global map. I don't see it really changing the lore in any way and why should it? There are so many unremarked planets to fight over that it doesn't matter too much in the scope of this game.

Would I love to see major battles played out? Sure, but they're not going to be anywhere near as interesting as the lore, or matter to the general "lore means diddly" crowd. Most come here to chew bubble gum and blow mechs up, and the lore is only so much bubblegum in their eyes.
This game won't have major scenarios for quite some time if at all, as such we're not going to be doing any major changes to lore as you couldn't really "simulate" it anyway.

[Trevnor]

Gozer, on 01 April 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

I would point to all of our friendly space vikings who have signed up to be pretty well messed up for the next couple of years once the clans arrive.

Yeah, hi there! Just because we know that our faction may be somewhat messed up in the coming times, does not deter us. We relish the challenge of fighting hard down our last 7 planets. I for one, would like the canon to be law, and to be mostly set in stone. I agree with Gozer, in that there is enough vagueness in canon that we can operate without much trouble. Also, I'm just going to point this out. The game design phase of MWO is over. There is unlikely to be major revisions to whatever the devs have already planned, because that would mean a huge delay for game release.

There is so much of the universe that was left completely unexplored in the novels, that we have a lot to work with. That's my two cents.

Edited by Lt Trevnor, 01 April 2012 - 05:44 AM.

[Lucifer Black]

@El Loco, 'Lore dictates events already'.

Why? Why should it? What does this add to the game? Why should I care about fighting prescripted conflicts regardless of the side I'm on? What's the incentive? These are questions that seem to only get a quasi-religious answer of 'the Lore is the Law'.

I accept your criticisms as far as my poll question writing goes, but I think the intent was pretty clear. So far, I'm still getting no answer to my original question that provides a satisfactory reason for MWO to be hidebound to the musings of TT fanatics who already have a TT canon faithful game to play; namely Battletech.

[FaustianQ]

Sticking to lore is the number one reason I'll NEVER be a clansman, and may even drop allegiance to Steiner-Davion, and just simply go lone wolf.

As lone wolf, my impact has the exact same value as any House, Merc, or Clan member, which is exactly nothing. You are not involved in the BattleTech universe, you aren't even a sideshow. The game, or more correctly "novel", would proceed on without you. Your actions and victories mean nothing, the diplomatic maneuvering you accomplish and the planets you control are empty and devoid of meaning. It's a nihilistic experience that I have no interest in partaking in, and I'd rather play World of Tanks at that point.

Why? Because in World of Tanks, you're factions (your clan) borders are determined solely by your skill on the battlefield, you're acumen in leading, and you're charisma at the diplomacy table. Everything counts, and you sink or swim based on that. The game writes it's own history, formed by the players, with an active competitive community purely because of that. It helps that I am part of a well established clan on that front, and one of the many reasons a few of my fellow clanmates are hesitant (heck, even the clan leader) is purely because we don't know about the competitive aspect. Not going to devote +120 people to a game only to have our impact be almost zero.

I am not Steiner-Davion because I am some fanboy who read a handful of lore, I am Steiner-Davion because I want to reunite the Inner Sphere, kick clanners in the teeth, and fight tooth and nail against other players for that right. I want to see the FRR knock the stuffing out of the Kuritans, I wouldn't mind seeing the FWL actually do something relevant, and it'd be interesting as all get up to see a periphery nation climb to IS worthy power. Forcing us down the straight and narrow of past canon mean none of that will happen.

I don't dismiss the idea of paying homage to canon, but if PGI really wants my attention and really cares about the game, yes, they will go to the length of player determined canon with particular events (tech/mech releases, clan invasion) ingrained, but not to the point where the WWWWHW is set in stone.

Edited by FaustianQ, 01 April 2012 - 05:53 AM.

[100mile]

Tadakuma, on 01 April 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

The point is that it's not an either or equation. It's not canon or player choice, with careful writing both can exist and the game will be better for it.

Exactly...Canon (yes i spelled it right) needs to be adhered to up until Game launch...Then as the Game progress's Major Milestones in Lore need to be placed in time line as close to Canon as possible...within 5-10 yrs should be close enough....and everything in between should be decided by the players...
I mean come on ain't nobody playing Melissa steiner (games not set up that way) Or Katrina so Katrina having her Mother killed still happens..and all of the attendant chaos that results...
The clans show up...Battles happen...things Go back and forth...Nobody is playing as Victor (once again game doesn't work that way) etc...The major milestones still get reported we react accordingly...and again all the stuff in between happens as it happens..
Katrina usurps the throne (per canon)<<look spelled it right 3x's in a row>>rips the Federated common wealth apart and we react accordingly...
Everybody is making this way too hard...If Fedcom owns 1000 planets more than they are supposed to per canon..then oh well..if the St. Ives Compact is twice the size it's supposed to be per canon...oh well..if the Lyran faction is only half as big as it's supposed to be (most likely result) oh well...

[FaustianQ]

See I am fine with a FedCom civil war, however, I am not fine with a FedCom that cannot persist. I am fine with a Clan Invasion, but I am not fine with clans that simply get territory, or are DEM'ed into losing at Tukayyid. I am fine with a small Confederation, but am not fine with giving them no chance to ally with the Concordant and smacking the Davions around a bit, or even not giving players the chance to join said House Calderon.

Events should be events, things decided by the playerbase, not a way to stay on the straight and narrow.

[Trevnor]

I'm just going to say something else, as I said in an earlier post, this stuff has already all been decided by the devs, and we won't know until the game comes out how it will go down. So, really this entire thread is just speculation, and a argument between hardcore fanboys, and people that don't care.

So, from here on out, I'm just going to sit down, shut up, and wait. We will all see what is to come of canon, lore, and the game once it is released.

[Kaemon]

To be fair, it may be decided already by the devs, but they do watch the forums, and these discussions are probably interesting to them, as they attempt to somewhat gauge the community reactions to these ideas.

They have stated it's a reboot, so they are not looking to mess with major events in the timelines. As far as lesser events, who knows? If a merc corp pushes the limits of what is allowed, how are they going to handle it?

What if the Goon swarm (or similar group) show up and attempt to throw the game out of balance?

Hard to say, we really don't know until we see how they are going to implement some of these major events.

Edited by Kaemon, 01 April 2012 - 06:18 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

The Canon lore is the BASIS for the game - not the path for future play. ONCE the players start playing, the "historical events" portrayed in the Canon after that point become alternate reality. The other elements that make up the fiction, mechs, vehicles, etc should be accepted for the most part. However, the Houses and The Clans, as depicted in the canon fiction should all be allowed to evolve to whereever the game takes them after whatever date has been established for game play. Technology should be allowed to improve/degrade in as sensible a fashion as is possible within the constraints of the fiction. Like no cross-teching - because the IS will have started to create their own "omni-tech" base limited by their resources.

So, my POV: The players create the fiction once a start date for play has been set.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 01 April 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[Arctic Fox]

How is changing the timeline going to work within the scope of a game which is, ultimately, about company-scale 'Mech battles? The vast majority of events in the BattleTech universe, much like in the real world, are started by, decided by or very heavily influenced by events which take place completely outside combat. Even when they're not, they are often heavily depended on entities which most likely won't be playable or fought at a much larger scale than the game's. Since this is 'MechWarrior Online' and not 'BattleTech Politics, Diplomacy, Logistics and Regiment-scale Warfare Simulator Online', how much can your actions in the game realistically influence the course of major events?

Now, I really wouldn't mind if control of border planets, unit and equipment costs and things like that would be effected by player actions. In fact I hope that these things would be in. But if the game allows the timeline to diverge completely based solely on the actions of players in a bunch of company-scale engagements I would be rather disappointed.

Oh, and throwing terms like 'insufferable lorehounds' and 'rabid fanbois' at people who don't agree with your opinion is a really poor way to make an argument in my opinion.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 01 April 2012 - 06:40 AM.

[Threat Doc]

I voted the second option, even though I'm an utter purist. Why? Because I believe the lore should be an extraordinarily strong backbone, where many cues need to be taken from there, historically and system-wise, but players need to be able to make something of a difference, help determine the outcome. I have a feeling if that were allowed, the invasion would actually turn out far worse than in the novels and lore. Maybe, then, people will see the importance of that backbone.

[FaustianQ]

How is it company scale when a Merc group of a 100 players begins decisive actions towards a specific goal? What happens if you have thousands of players doing that? Battles are broken down into company scale for the sake of your computer, not otherwise.

Here's something to ponder, what if a Merc Group names themselves the Oberon Confederation, and manages to hold onto a very large number of border worlds between whomever?

[Lucifer Black]

(per canon)&lt;&lt;look spelled it right 3x's in a row&gt;&gt;
Everybody is making this way too hard...If Fedcom owns 1000 planets more than they are supposed to per canon..then oh well..if the St. Ives Compact is twice the size it's supposed to be per canon...


That's 4x in a row and you win one Internet and a toffee.

I agree with your 'just chill' sentiment entirely, I don't post often and I'm generally pretty laid back but I just got sick of noobs and non-Battletech historians getting shut down by people who seem to be determined to make the MWO community as inaccessible as possible.

[CloudCobra]

I love the lore but the more i think about it the more i think it would be cool to reboot the whole thing like they did with Star Trek. I mean what clanner dosen't wish Tukayyid had gone the other way. Also it would be cool to see the Free Worlds League or the Capellans be more than token factions.

[ChapeL]

I've always taken the "strict adherence to Lore" to mean stuff like : At this time, 'Mechs use these types of weapon, the Great Houses have these systems under their controls, the map of the Inner Sphere looks like this and NO YOU CAN'T DRIVE A MADCATBLOODASPDAISHIRAGNAROK yet ( or ever) because they either haven't come into play yet or simply don't exist. *cough* Whew.. don't know what happened there

As far as the rest goes, having played in a planetary league that managed to simulate every last world in the Inner sphere and Kerensky Cluster, ( each of them up for invasion ) it's going to take A LOT of concerted efforts by a lot of people before we start to notice large deviations from the lore on the Inner Sphere map. That being said, it could and should happen as long as key elements of the story are safeguarded such as the Clan Invasion, the Battle of Tukayyid, Hanse Davion dying as a gift for Sun-Tzu's ascension to the Chancellery of the Confederation ... what ? ... what do you mean that's not what happened ?... nevermind !

Making the timeline completely player driven could backfire as well. A far fetched example would be Vlad ( insert any clan player) Ward facing upwards of six Mercenary regiments on the Rock ( all bent on salvaging his precious Timber Wolf ) instead of Phelan Kell in his Wolfhound.

As a side note, even though I don't think anything has been said about this in any official capacity, I do think the devs plan on deviating from the Lore when in comes to the gargantuan FedCom. Even though they are not officially merged yet by 3049, the Lyran Commonwealth and Federated Suns are pretty much acting as one state at this point. Meaning forum posters here shouldn't be able to choose between Sunburst and Gauntlet for their avatar as it should already be the joining of the two. As such I expect we'll see some liberties taken...

Edited by Bull Frog, 01 April 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Jake Valeck]

the devs have answered this question.

[ChapeL]

Really ? I missed that one... I'll look it up

[Gremlich Johns]

Jake Valeck, on 01 April 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

the devs have answered this question.

If you have not noticed, that rarely assauges players' concerns about things they are interested in.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

I am a mechwarrior who loves the canon; but MW:O is not Battletech canon. I view it as an instance of Battletech and thus this can change. So I voted that lore should have a minor effect on the game. I'd actually like to see all these tough talking clanners try and take the Inner Sphere as opposed to having it served to them on a silver plot platter.

[Seabear]

If it were not for the Canon (yes, I do know how to spell), there is no unifying thread to the universe. We are not going to change the flow of events with a single company. It is the Lore of BT that makes it great; othertwise, it might as well be Gundam (That I don't know how to spell. Or even care for that matter.) or some other second rate Japanese cartoon game. As for having an impact, the border marches of each nation/house were always in a state of flux. That has always been the area where change was constant and unpredictable. The borders of these stellar nations will change far more than the borders of nations today; but these changes won't affect the existence of any faction. The Lore/Canon will provide plenty of exciting and relevent combat for years to come.

One may not be able to conquer the IS, but one can try. That is what the Succession Wars were about, and if one succeeds, who will you fight. The game will be DEAD. . You want to carve out a "place of your own" in the game, you will have your chance in the Chaos Marches or the outer edges of the IS (just don't choose the coreward edge). The Canon/Lore provides the outer boundary and the direction of the game without which there is no continuity. I, for one, look forward to experiencing the ebb and flow of the game within the Canon/Lore. Of course, I am one of what one twitcher has called an "old TT fanatic". And I am proud of it.