63 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

One small feature that I'd like to see implemented concerns gauss rifles. As far as I know, it hasn't played a role in any previous mechwarrior games.

What I'm talking about is that fact that in the novels (I can't say I know if this is also true concerning the TROs) it has been stated several times that mechs cannot fire more than one gauss rifle simultaneously (due to the energy output required to fire both exceeding the energy output of the mech's powerplant). In fact, several mechs are described as attempting to fire two gauss rifles at the same time; but they always end up firing them in succession (this situation occurs when a Clan mech attempts this) even if they pull the triggers at the same time.

It's just a little feature I'd like to see; I know it's not a big deal (I don't know how likely we are to see mechs weilding multiple gauss rifles in this time period), but I think it would be a nice touch.

[Trevnor]

I don't know if that's the actual case... I believe I've read a few books, where two gauss rifles could fire at the same time, but I may be mistaken.

[Terick]

I don't think we will see Gausszilla until the clans come. Annilator with 4 G-Rifles and speed of 2/3. You need clan tech to do this. Clan Gauss rifles are 12 tons each and IS are 15 tons each.

The IS Gausszilla would be the Thunder Hawk. Three G-Rifles speed of 3/5.

Both are 100 tons and mount a lot of armor.

Time line would be tricky... the Anna is a clan mech and was used by one person in clan history and wasn't used much after that one person died.

The T-Hawk.... was made for the Star League but the production was stopped and the ones built went boom. They restarted production in 3058 I think. So eight years and you can have one.

Now... should they both fire at the same time when the button is pressed. That is more of a balance issue. Since the damage output on the G-Rifles is so high and the range is pretty effective. Would have to see.

I will say a pair of G-Rifles have the same damage output as three IS ER PPCs that weigh a lot less and don't use ammo. So if it happens to G-Rifles then other weapons would possibly also be forced in to not being fired at the same tie.

Edited by Terick, 01 April 2012 - 06:19 AM.

[William Petersen]

Terick, on 01 April 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

I don't think we will see Gausszilla until the clans come. Annilator with 4 G-Rifles and speed of 2/3. You need clan tech to do this. Clan Gauss rifles are 12 tons each and IS are 15 tons each.

The IS Gausszilla would be the Thunder Hawk. Three G-Rifles speed of 3/5.

Both are 100 tons and mount a lot of armor.

Time line would be tricky... the Anna is a clan mech and was used by one person in clan history and wasn't used much after that one person died.

The T-Hawk.... was made for the Star League but the production was stopped and the ones built went boom. They restarted production in 3058 I think. So eight years and you can have one.

Now... should they both fire at the same time when the button is pressed. That is more of a balance issue. Since the damage output on the G-Rifles is so high and the range is pretty effective. Would have to see.

I will say a pair of G-Rifles have the same damage output as three IS ER PPCs that weigh a lot less and don't use ammo. So if it happens to G-Rifles then other weapons would possibly also be forced in to not being fired at the same tie.

ANH is actually a *Star League* Mech. They allegedly still exist in the IS but are *EXTREMELY* rare (at least until Wolf's Dragoons came back with some). The Clans actually stopped producing them. Not sure when/if/why/how the IS would/does start up production of them again.

I hope it makes the cut some time. I love the ANH, but not so much as a gauss platform. <.<

EDIT: And the Great and Powerful Sarna, as ever, has the answer:

The Great and Powerful Sarna said:

It was exclusive to the Dragoons until the Jihad disseminated the design to Arc-Royal due to the strengthening of the
relationship that Wolf's Dragoons forged with the Kell Hounds and Clan Wolf-in-Exile following their flight from Outreach.

/sighs So much for that. v_v

Edited by William Petersen, 01 April 2012 - 06:36 AM.

[Terick]

William Petersen, on 01 April 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

ANH is actually a *Star League* Mech. They allegedly still exist in the IS but are *EXTREMELY* rare (at least until Wolf's Dragoons came back with some). The Clans actually stopped producing them. Not sure when/if/why/how the IS would/does start up production of them again.

I hope it makes the cut some time. I love the ANH, but not so much as a gauss platform. <.<

EDIT: And the Great and Powerful Sarna, as ever, has the answer:



/sighs So much for that. v_v

Never was produced once the clans stopped. To much of a semi mobile turret. Some INF with LRM carriers could blow the thing apart with indirect fire... Just couldn't get out of the way an motorized INF is just as fast. So if purely mech combat on a small field a good mech. In real warfare it isn't that good.

The Wolf's Dragoons weren't making them and was the only IS power to have any. They were moving to better designs. Like the IMP.

Ok, Arc Royal might be making them in 3070+... for this time and the next 20 years.... only a Dragoon mech.

Another mech that is popular because it was available in MW4 way more then in history.

Still comes down to balance issue. Should a mech be able to fire four AC/10s and hit one location with that much damage? That is just a little less damage then three G-Rifles.

Edited by Terick, 01 April 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[I c a r u s]

I seem to recall a Pillager firing two gauss rifles in... Initiation to War?

[Terick]

There are a number of mechs that mount a pair of G-Rifles.

The clans have a pod configuration of the Mad Dog that has a G-Rifle in each arm.

The IS has the Gunslinger and Cerberus both in 3055. Then you get the Pillager that restarts production in 3058. PLG was a Star League mech that went out of production and the mechs went boom.

[Soviet Alex]

Fafnir. Later era Steiner 100-tonner with 2xHeavy Gauss Rifles. Whether you'd want to fire them simultaneously or stagger the shots slightly using chain-fire depends on how badly the recoil spoils your aim. When I tried the Vulture-C (2xGauss Rifles) in MW3, I found that the recoil from the arm-mounted guns pulled my aim off. So I'd fire 1, re-aim, and fire the other against moving targets, or fire both at once against something easy to hit.

The other thing to bear in mind is that 2 simultaneous gauss rifle hits has a fair chance of knocking you over. Some of us use that tactically. Staggering the shots slightly removes the knockdown.

[Tadakuma]

The Devastator, the version with 2 gauss and 2 PPC started production in 3048 (so by the time the games starts there might be 12-20 in service) Only really seen in the Davion Brigade Guard at this stage, so I wouldn't expect to see this for a while.

In regards to the delay in firing, it's a little specialised and while I think it would be cool I don't think we'll see it.

[Strum Wealh]

Artgathan, on 01 April 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

One small feature that I'd like to see implemented concerns gauss rifles. As far as I know, it hasn't played a role in any previous mechwarrior games.

What I'm talking about is that fact that in the novels (I can't say I know if this is also true concerning the TROs) it has been stated several times that mechs cannot fire more than one gauss rifle simultaneously (due to the energy output required to fire both exceeding the energy output of the mech's powerplant). In fact, several mechs are described as attempting to fire two gauss rifles at the same time; but they always end up firing them in succession (this situation occurs when a Clan mech attempts this) even if they pull the triggers at the same time.

It's just a little feature I'd like to see; I know it's not a big deal (I don't know how likely we are to see mechs weilding multiple gauss rifles in this time period), but I think it would be a nice touch.

Where, specifically, are these several instances stating that multiple Gauss Rifles could not be fires simultaneously?

Gauss Rifles, as coilguns, operate using a capacitor bank that is charged by electricity from the Fusion Engine.
In fact, it is explicitly stated that it is that capacitor bank that explodes when the weapon itself takes a critical hit, resulting in effects identical to an ammunition explosion (as Gauss Rifle ammunition, as sets of solid nickel-ferrous slugs, is itself inert).

With each Gauss Rifle having its own capacitor bank, the Fusion Engine would need only to be able to charge all of the capacitor banks at the same time (probably by modeling each Gauss Rifle as a single capacitor and building them into the 'Mech as a circuit with the "capacitors" in parallel).

In the example and using this graphic, the Fusion Engine would be represented by the voltage source (the symbol at the bottom of the figure) and each Gauss Rifle would be represented by a capacitor ("C1" - Gauss Rifle 01, "C2" = Gauss Rifle 02, "C3" = Gauss Rifle 03).

For C = capacitance in farads, V = voltage in volts, R = resistance in ohms of a resistor placed between the voltage source and the capacitors, and (Vs - Vc) = voltage across a resistor placed between the voltage source and the capacitors:
charge (Q) in coulombs = C * V
stored energy (E) in joules = 0.5 * C * V^2
combined capacitance (C_tot) for parallel arrangement = C1 + C2 + C3 + ...
time constant (lower = fast charging) = R * C
charging current (I) = (Vs - Vc)/R

Also, the capacitor banks of the Gauss Rifles would/should(?) actually be part of two circuits - one connecting them to the Fusion Engine for charging and the other connecting them to their respective Gauss Rifle's firing coils (into which they would discharge), with each disengaging when the other is engaged...?

Your thoughts?

[Soviet Alex]

I skipped the physics lecture, since the devs have made it clear to most of us that we won't have gauss rifles at the start. End of. Let's not worry about "gauss-zillas" until we start seeing them in-game. I'd be more concerned about Awesomes & PPC-boating, if I cared at all.

[Jacob Davion]

Strum Wealh, on 01 April 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Where, specifically, are these several instances stating that multiple Gauss Rifles could not be fires simultaneously?

Gauss Rifles, as coilguns, operate using a capacitor bank that is charged by electricity from the Fusion Engine.
In fact, it is explicitly stated that it is that capacitor bank that explodes when the weapon itself takes a critical hit, resulting in effects identical to an ammunition explosion (as Gauss Rifle ammunition, as sets of solid nickel-ferrous slugs, is itself inert).

With each Gauss Rifle having its own capacitor bank, the Fusion Engine would need only to be able to charge all of the capacitor banks at the same time (probably by modeling each Gauss Rifle as a single capacitor and building them into the 'Mech as a circuit with the "capacitors" in parallel).

In the example and using this graphic, the Fusion Engine would be represented by the voltage source (the symbol at the bottom of the figure) and each Gauss Rifle would be represented by a capacitor ("C1" - Gauss Rifle 01, "C2" = Gauss Rifle 02, "C3" = Gauss Rifle 03).

For C = capacitance in farads, V = voltage in volts, R = resistance in ohms of a resistor placed between the voltage source and the capacitors, and (Vs - Vc) = voltage across a resistor placed between the voltage source and the capacitors:
charge (Q) in coulombs = C * V
stored energy (E) in joules = 0.5 * C * V^2
combined capacitance (C_tot) for parallel arrangement = C1 + C2 + C3 + ...
time constant (lower = fast charging) = R * C
charging current (I) = (Vs - Vc)/R

Also, the capacitor banks of the Gauss Rifles would/should(?) actually be part of two circuits - one connecting them to the Fusion Engine for charging and the other connecting them to their respective Gauss Rifle's firing coils (into which they would discharge), with each disengaging when the other is engaged...?

Your thoughts?

I think its time you build yourself a Mackie mister. But good and reasonable theories.

[The Maestro]

Quote

Since the Gauss Rifle fires solid metal slugs, with neither propellant nor explosive, Gauss Rifle magazines are not susceptible to ammunition explosions. However, if the weapon itself is struck by enemy fire, the capacitors that power the electromagnets will release their stored energy, with an effect similar to an ammo explosion.

The Gauss Rifles use capacitor banks to store energy in order to fire. That means all the load on the reactor happens AFTER discharge, so unless you have to stagger them by more than the weapon's actual reload time (which doesn't make any sense) then firing simultaneously is completely possible.

The claim that they have to be staggered reaks of Stackpole-style misunderstanding of the physics involved. The kind of people who can write good fiction are typically the type of people that almost failed their physics courses in high school, and by extension barely even understood the TROs. I think we can chalk this up to crappy understanding of the mechanics of BattleMechs on the part of the author(s).

Ach, Strum Wealth beat me to it, and with more detail as well!

Edited by The Maestro, 01 April 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[The1WithTheGun]

William Petersen, on 01 April 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

ANH is actually a *Star League* Mech. They allegedly still exist in the IS but are *EXTREMELY* rare (at least until Wolf's Dragoons came back with some).

Not quite. The Annihilator was designed in the final year of the Amaris Civil War, but was never actually constructed within the Inner Sphere. Kerensky's forces took the designs with them when they went into exile and once they were established in the Pentagon Worlds the Clans started building them.

They were completely unknown in the Inner Sphere - and one of the reasons that cast a lot of suspicion on the Dragoons when they showed up in '05. They remained exclusive to the Dragoons until the Jihad decades later (apart from the occasional battlefield salvage of course).

Edited by The1WithTheGun, 01 April 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[osito]

I believe they can be fired at the same time. i know in the books after you fire the Gauss rifles you can't fire energy weapons for a couple seconds. Yes 3 ppc equal damage of 2 gauss and does weight less. Yet you forget the amount of heat you will have to deal with. 3 ppc is 30 points of heat. While for the same damage a pair of gauss cost you like 4 heat and tremendous kinetic damage. Unless you are packing alot of double heatsinks you will have problems with alpha strikes.

[NotNewHere]

I just thought of another question. Would Gauss Rifles have similar HUD scrambling effects to PPC's? I mean if you fire a large ferrous object using a magnetic field its gonna become pretty magnetic in its own right. So would having a large magnet embedded in its internals effect a mechs systems?

[verybad]

Never read that in any book or lore, though I've not read them all. The gauss rifles rely on capacitors, which must be charged up. If you can't charge a capacitor with a fusion engine...

There's no good scientific reason for that other than individual authors using it as a fiction devise. Realistically a laser or PPC should use more energy than a gauss weapon to get the kind of destruction to armor that they do...

[HighlandWolf]

SOFI Nitro, on 01 April 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

I seem to recall a Pillager firing two gauss rifles in... Initiation to War?

I remember this too

[Cawdor]

Just wanted to quickly point out that in the "Blood of Kerensky " Trilogy Vol.2, Natasha Kerensky explains to Phelan Kell/Wolf that the Gaus Rifle can not be fired in a salvo with other energy weapons. If you squeeze all the triggers at once, the computer automatically queues the usage of the individual weapons for reasons of energy management.

The 'Mech in question was an "unique OmniMech" that Natasha had patched together for the testing for her self and Phelan - she called it "Lone Wolf". That was in 3050.

Obviously, the power requirement is meant to be a balancing measure to counter the next-to-zero heat consumption. If used wisely, however, it is a fantastic weapon giving your 'Mech time to cool off while still delivering a massive pay-load.

Also: Gaus Rifles aren't introduced to the IS until 3050 and even then only on a hand full of mechs provided or refitted by the Dragoons.

[Steamroller Stig]

that's what capacitors are for, if anything I wish we could add extra capacitors as a component or even ammo so we could fire Gauss rifle rounds like an auto cannon.

yes I am fully aware of how hilariously overpowered that would be

Edited by Steamroller Stig, 01 April 2012 - 04:51 PM.