103 replies to this topic

[FR33JACK]

Prosperity Park, on 30 October 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Well, we can also kiss some of that double armor goodbye, too... DHS means more pewpew and more dakkadakka. It will probably mean less ska-thuuuummm, since dakka will look more attractive, but I dont't expect to see any reduction in wooosh.

[Sprouticus]

First I would like to put in an early I told you so re: laser boats dominating the game in 10 days. With LRM's a close second.

4x(ER)LL K2's will replace dual gauss
4 LL/Gauss Atlas's will abound.

6 ML or 4-5 MPL Jenner-f's
9 ML 4P's
7xMPL Awesome

4 LRM15 Cat's
4 LRM20 Awesomes



------------------

Now that my future gloating is over, here are some other concerns

• Trial mechs will be at a serious disadvantage. I never really considered them junk before (tough to play but not junk). I think they may enter that category now.
  
• DHS will be used on 95% of mechs. SHS will be completely useless (I challenge someone to come up with more that 1-2 viable builds which require only SHS. I can only think of 1, the gausscat)
  
• Pugstomping will get WORSE. With the ability to use high alpha weapons and mass LRM boats, pre-mades (even 4 man pre-mades) will be able to take out pugs who make a tactical mistake almost instantaneously
  
• Light mechs and mediums will rule the game. Jenner-F in aprtiular will become absurdly powerful. (NOTE: This is a combined issue with DHS and no physical dmg/knockdown)

Now, how do the Devs adjust?

They can change the heat on some weapons to adjust this, but that will make DHS even more mandatory and make any build which requires SHS completely non-viable. But since 95% of the builds will be DHS it doesnt matter. Expect more heat on ML, MPL, and LL. Possible more on ERLL, I have not run the numbers.

Perhaps the bug in question will mitigate the issue. Im sure we will see more info as we get closer to patch day. Perhaps the bug in question is the ML vs MPL heat big mentioned in the beta forums?

Other than that I dont know. Things can get balanced out, Im not worried about weapons imbalance long term. But the shifting of the heat curve will either make heat a non factor on some mechs, OR will promote certain high energy slot mechs (K2, Atlas, Awesome, 4P, Jenner) at the expense of the rest.

[Like a Sir]

Salient, on 30 October 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

how about they fix it today instead of a week from now? ... guess im stuck playing overheat online...

On the up side you must be super stocked; seeing how your LRM POLL thread is not doing that well, this must be a relief since you will have a lot more long range weapon alternatives to take out LRM boats with!... Now if you are still dying after that... well that's just not going to happen, I'm sure.

[Sprouticus]

Yokaiko, on 30 October 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

All engines are supposed to HAVE 10 heatsinks as well. Right now they don't.

No

• All engines require 10 HS.
  
• Engines have the capacity to hold 1 HS per 25 rating
  
• IF under 250, the extra HS has to be placed on the mech. This is free of weight (but not crit slots) in TT. MWO reduces the mass of engines under 250 to adjust for this factor and forces you to place an extra HS
  
• If 275+ you can add a HS to the engine for no extra crit slots but which costs 1 ton of mass. This is NOT automatic in MWO, as the Devs give you the choise to *** the 1-4 tons/HS or not.

[Yokaiko]

Sprouticus, on 30 October 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

No

• All engines require 10 HS.
  
• Engines have the capacity to hold 1 HS per 25 rating
  
• IF under 250, the extra HS has to be placed on the mech. This is free of weight (but not crit slots) in TT. MWO reduces the mass of engines under 250 to adjust for this factor and forces you to place an extra HS
  
• If 275+ you can add a HS to the engine for no extra crit slots but which costs 1 ton of mass. This is NOT automatic in MWO, as the Devs give you the choise to *** the 1-4 tons/HS or not.

Heh fair enough I was going by the TT rules.

10 was 10 and it didn't matter WTF engine it was.

[AEgg]

I think what to make of this really depends on what the other bug they're fixing is. Maybe the "other bug" is that they're adding heat penalties for firing lots of weapons at once, or lots of weapons mounted near each other, or maybe heatsinks more effectively cool equipment they're near. Or maybe the heat modifications on maps will get significantly higher (caustic gets hotter, frozen gets cooler).

I like the fact that heat is something you have to consider, so hopefully whatever the changes are they don't completely negate heat. (Although I suppose even if heat of current builds becomes a non-issue we could just run six ERPPCs and have heat issues again.)

[Lightfoot]

EtherDragon, on 30 October 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Hardly, even with fully functioning DHS in the engines - fire rates are such that you build up lots of heat over time, even with DHS during continuous fire.

And this has the greatest impact on Energy weapons and what they have in MWO now is so crippling that even Stock energy based variants don't work. We'll see if this fix restores some much needed weapons balance. Let's fix those bugs!

[Rifter]

Sprouticus, on 30 October 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

First I would like to put in an early I told you so re: laser boats dominating the game in 10 days. With LRM's a close second.

4x(ER)LL K2's will replace dual gauss
4 LL/Gauss Atlas's will abound.

6 ML or 4-5 MPL Jenner-f's
9 ML 4P's
7xMPL Awesome

4 LRM15 Cat's
4 LRM20 Awesomes



------------------

Now that my future gloating is over, here are some other concerns

• Trial mechs will be at a serious disadvantage. I never really considered them junk before (tough to play but not junk). I think they may enter that category now.
  
• DHS will be used on 95% of mechs. SHS will be completely useless (I challenge someone to come up with more that 1-2 viable builds which require only SHS. I can only think of 1, the gausscat)
  
• Pugstomping will get WORSE. With the ability to use high alpha weapons and mass LRM boats, pre-mades (even 4 man pre-mades) will be able to take out pugs who make a tactical mistake almost instantaneously
  
• Light mechs and mediums will rule the game. Jenner-F in aprtiular will become absurdly powerful. (NOTE: This is a combined issue with DHS and no physical dmg/knockdown)

1. They will release variants with new tech(endo,FF,DHS) so you could be piloting a trial with this tech soon.

2. Thats kinda the point, DHS does invalidate the use of SHS in most builds, but also gives the IS a fighting chance vs clan mechs. Last time i checked new tech was supposed to be better than old tech.

3. 4 Man premades can still win games now so not much will change there.

4. Kockdowns are coming back, killing ligts will be very easy when we can knock them down again, and remember everyone will have access to DHS not just lights so we will be able to fire more often at them.

[TheBossHammer]

Livewyr, on 30 October 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

My 4 LRM15 Cat will be glorious.

lol...and then the jerk in the 9 medium laser, XL 260 swayback shows up and says "Oh HAI! "

[QuantumButler]

Thank god.

[Karyudo ds]

Hmm, the heat "bug" part of that message bothers me a bit. I think we'll adapt no matter what they fix but it just seems ominous to not even mention what was going wrong.

[Thorqemada]

The Danger is that Trial Mechs become totally outclassed and LRM/energy boats become mandatory.
I am curious how they handle it.

Edited by Thorqemada, 30 October 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[Krivvan]

I actually rather like the current bugged implementation. I like the fact that heat builds up quickly and stays hot. At least a quarter of the game to me is dancing around 80%-90% heat while still remaining active and it's the funnest part.

Edited by Krivvan, 30 October 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[EDMW CSN]

Thorqemada, on 30 October 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

The Danger is that Trial Mechs become totally outclassed and LRM/energy boats become mandatory.
I am curious how they handle it.

They can put L2 trial mechs. Won't be surprised anyway.

[Calmon]

DHS in engine replacing SHS is just stupid. It means: There is no good SHS alternative. Full DHS in engine alone make every SHS build bad -> trial mechs will get devastaded even more. It will also make heatsinks in engine the only important fact. Therefore -> get big engines because you get more speed, more mobility and even more doubleheatsinks. Slow engines are just plain bad. No good balancing!

It also not compareable with TT because in TT you fire far less and so the initial coolness is far more influencing than here. Also you pay DHS with battlevalue. Here you you have higher repair costs which is nothing 99% will look at - they want to have the best builds and to win!

All this could have be balanced silencely in closed beta. Now you will get a "shitstorm" for every change which makes the going open-beta really a bad decision.

Edited by Calmon, 31 October 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[JewBoy]

TheBossHammer, on 30 October 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

lol...and then the jerk in the 9 medium laser, XL 260 swayback shows up and says "Oh HAI! "

XL engines arent really viable in a laserboat hunchback if youre using dual heatsinks.

[Krivvan]

Calmon, on 31 October 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

DHS in engine replacing SHS is just stupid. It means: There is no good SHS alternative. Full DHS in engine alone make every SHS build bad -> trial mechs will get devastaded even more. It will also make heatsinks in engine the only important fact. Therefore -> get big engines because you get more speed, more mobility and even more doubleheatsinks. Slow engines are just plain bad. No good balancing!

It also not compareable with TT because in TT you fire far less and so the initial coolness is far more influencing than here. Also you pay DHS with battlevalue. Here you you have higher repair costs which is nothing 99% will look at - they want to have the best builds and to win!

All this could have be balanced silencely in closed beta. Now you will get a "shitstorm" for every change which makes the going open-beta really a bad decision.

Well, SHS are far more effective in Assault mechs.

[EDMW CSN]

Calmon, on 31 October 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

DHS in engine replacing SHS is just stupid. It means: There is no good SHS alternative. Full DHS in engine alone make every SHS build bad -> trial mechs will get devastaded even more. It will also make heatsinks in engine the only important fact. Therefore -> get big engines because you get more speed, more mobility and even more doubleheatsinks. Slow engines are just plain bad. No good balancing!

It also not compareable with TT because in TT you fire far less and so the initial coolness is far more influencing than here. Also you pay DHS with battlevalue. Here you you have higher repair costs which is nothing 99% will look at - they want to have the best builds and to win!

All this could have be balanced silencely in closed beta. Now you will get a "shitstorm" for every change which makes the going open-beta really a bad decision.

You can build a non-XL engine Annihilator with 4 gauss rifles using SHS.
And I save 1.5m not forking out the DHS upgrade

Heck any Gauss boat only needs SHS.
Also you miss out that they can implement mechs with DHS as trials ya know.

[Orkimedes]

I wonder if the other heat-related bug they found was the (suspected) deminishing returns on heatsinks some outstanding testers found. That could change a lot indeed.

[TOGSolid]

EDMW CSN, on 31 October 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

Also you miss out that they can implement mechs with DHS as trials ya know.

The real surprise would be if they didn't do this. It'd solve a LOT of problems.