593 replies to this topic

[Pale Rider 010]

I've been wondering, what should happen when you run out of ammo? Some mechs, like the Catapult in particular, rely heavily on ammunition, and are really just a liability once it is depleted. Should that be a risk you run when you don't choose energy weapons as primary firepower? Should there be some way to replenish ammo? I can imagine interesting gameplay in trying to defend your team's resupply point, but I can also imagine less interesting gameplay as people try to pick off weakened (Depleted) mechs that need a resupply.

Now I know that traditionally, once you're out of ammo, you're out, and that's it. I'm just wondering if that would be good design here. Having to consider what you will do when you exhaust ammo while in the mechlab is interesting, actually being out of ammo and having to rely on those little afterthoughts of lasers you included is not.

So what do you guys think?

EDIT: Spelling

Edited by Pale Rider 010, 04 April 2012 - 09:31 PM.

[Oswin Aurelius]

[Ian MacLeary]

You go with an ammo-dependent design, you risk running out of ammo. (And this is coming from a prospective Commando pilot.) While I wouldn't object to a possibility for limited reloads, I think that should be restricted to a few scenarios rather than generally available.

If you're going to be running around shooting at anything that moves, go energy-heavy. If you're more thoughtful about when and where you fire your weapons, missiles and ballistics become much more attractive.

[GDL Irishwarrior]

I believe that running out of ammo should definitely be a danger - as far as what comes after that, it all depends on whether the battlefield would reasonably HAVE mobile field bases - sometimes the answer would be yes, sometimes no; I think it would largely depend on the mission type. If MFBs are available, great - tell your lance, make a dash for the resupply, and hope you still have allies when you've reloaded. Otherwise, I guess you can always use your Catapult to try DFA-ing Atlases

[Dirk Le Daring]

If you run out of ammo, that's it, empty.

MFB's, not somthing i am keen on, though as Irishwarrior stated, some instances, possible.
It would take quite some time to reload, and not just being a sitting duck....What happens if the enemy spots your MFB ? I know I'd reduce it to a smouldering pile of slag as soon as i could.

[Motionless]

Running out of ammo isn't a "risk" it's part of the calculation and the trade off.

Many of these ammo dependent systems can maintain constant fire until out of ammo unlike something like PPCs or lasers. So if it's 1v1 - atlas vs atlas race to the death you can see why limited ammo isn't much of a problem, because you almost assuredly have at least enough to pump into him before running out, and if he needs to hold back because of heat and you don't he's probably dead.

If you took away the issue of ammo, or trivialized it to the point that it was a nonissue (like providing abundant mechassault style powerups on the ground that replenished ammo,) then why use energy weapons anymore?

[Kylarus]

GDL Irishwarrior, on 04 April 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

I believe that running out of ammo should definitely be a danger - as far as what comes after that, it all depends on whether the battlefield would reasonably HAVE mobile field bases - sometimes the answer would be yes, sometimes no; I think it would largely depend on the mission type. If MFBs are available, great - tell your lance, make a dash for the resupply, and hope you still have allies when you've reloaded. Otherwise, I guess you can always use your Catapult to try DFA-ing Atlases

This is my feel on it.
Running out of ammo is something that feels really cool to read about in stories where the length of a battle is generally short and the players(actors/characters/etc) have literary boundaries as opposed to graphical boundaries. In TT, running out of ammo seems like it separates the crafty from the straightforward. I haven't played very much, but in such a game I could see a player making use of nonstandard combat maneuvers to take down a foe. In a more graphical game where one can't hand-wave those things, it limits options, but doesn't have to make it less fun, in that you still have other weapons and possibly DFA and running the enemy into traps and hazards.

In a short sweet match, ammo should last till the end. In a protracted battle with numerous opponents, perhaps being able to cycle frontliners to and from a MFB to reload while you have forces holding a line would be viable. Could lead to the choice of blitz and hope it doesn't backfire or whittle the opponent down from a fortified position.
The sweet spot for battle times should be between running out of ammo for all your weapons (machine guns as well) and necessitating a reload to continue the fight with any decency and not hitting the halfway mark on your primary ammo counter.

[StandingCow]

I don't think matches really last long enough (think they said roughly 20 min?) to warrent a re-supply system. Once you are out, you should just stay out of ammo.

[Oswin Aurelius]

You don't want to run out of ammo? Looks like you're going to have to sacrifice something for a few extra tons, now aren't you?

[MostlyHarmless]

I think ammo boats should have to deal with running dry, those who prefer energy heavy designs have to deal with heat problems if you want ammo dependent designs then you get to deal with less heat but a finite amount of ammo. Further I really hope that we have to pay for every shell, missile, and bullet. Any merc unit would have to pay to resupply if they could even get reloads, even the houses have to justify expenditures. Extended campaigns behind enemy lines could even mean no chance for resupply. In the books there are plenty of resupply operations but those are not quick operations. not something done under fire. There is a lot of talk between simulation and arcade game, in this case I really hope we go for simulation rather than making it an arcade game.

[Pharaoh]

those who rely so heavily on weapons using a finite supply of ammunition need to LEARN how to pilot those mechs most effectively. while a mobile field base might introduce other interesting strategic elements, it would complicate other matters considerably, drawing resources away from the game's focus: engaging the enemy in the field.

[SweetJackal]

You pick a weapon that uses ammo, the risk of running out of ammo should be real. This is why proper planning is important as ammo takes weight, you skimp on ammo to squeeze in more firepower, you get an emergency weapon that can't be used in prolonged engagments.

That said, there are ways to reload out in the field by means of supply trains. Though for them to be near a conflict would make them and the mech needing them even more vulnerable, it wouldn't be a case of just picking up a supply crate.

Edited by SuckyJack, 04 April 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[Oswin Aurelius]

MostlyHarmless, on 04 April 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

There is a lot of talk between simulation and arcade game, in this case I really hope we go for simulation rather than making it an arcade game.

This was never going to be an arcade style game. It's been a simulation game from before it was even known as Mechwarrior: Online.

[Solis Obscuri]

Personally, I don't think running dry is a huge risk in a 12v12 match; however, the ability to quickly resupply was a feature of some mechs, particularly the Enforcer, so I think it should be allowed, though there should be some limitation that restricts you from fighting while resupplying; I don't want people camping over some kind of "resupply zone" while standing on the trigger with ammo-dependent load-outs.

[Pale Rider 010]

Solis Obscuri, on 04 April 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

Personally, I don't think running dry is a huge risk in a 12v12 match; however, the ability to quickly resupply was a feature of some mechs, particularly the Enforcer, so I think it should be allowed, though there should be some limitation that restricts you from fighting while resupplying; I don't want people camping over some kind of "resupply zone" while standing on the trigger with ammo-dependent load-outs.

What I had in mind was a situation where you had to shut down for some period of time while additional ammo is loaded into your mech, be it inside the enclosure of a field base, or out in the open by some kind of supply vehicle. Not only are you not fighting, but you are explicitly vulnerable, and it takes longer the more ammo you need to load.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Solis Obscuri, on 04 April 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

however, the ability to quickly resupply was a feature of some mechs, particularly the Enforcer

What kind of Nova Cat stuff have you been smoking?

[Ian MacLeary]

Oswin Aurelius, on 04 April 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Nova Cat stuff

Wouldn't that be Nova Scat?

[William Petersen]

To me, it all depends on the canon. I know the MW3 MFBs repaired WAY too fast (for gameplay reasons), but I don't know how quickly ammunition can be replenished. I also think it should tie into the campaign and the availability of logistical support to your company.

Let's not forget that leaving the front line to resupply is a LOT of time you're spending, basically as dead weight on your lance, especially if you're in a 4/6 plodder (or worse). Also, going back to resupply, alone, makes you ripe pickings for being taken out by roaming scouts.


I think that it would add a lot of interesting tactical decisions, but like I said, I would only be accepting towards canonical reloading times, I imagine that a trained and already-prepared reload crew would work much like a pit stop in car-racing, just with bullets and missiles instead of tired and fuel.


EDIT: As for cost, it could be tacked on to your repair cost at the end of the mission, or simply automatically deducted from your mission's earnings. I think I like that last one better.

EDIT 2: It should also cost more than ammo obtained at-base, since you're diminishing the in-field stock, which will need replacing, expending logistical support. I'm thinking maybe 25-50% more.

Edited by William Petersen, 04 April 2012 - 10:02 PM.

[LackofCertainty]

I think that when you run out of ammo, the next trigger pull should summon a Carebear riding a unicorn to swoop down onto the battlefield and beam extra ammo into your mech with a Carebear Stare.




Honestly, I think pretty much every game that has ammo lets you run out of ammo, otherwise what's the point of it? Not to mention that mechwarrior is leaning toward the simmier (simer? more sim-y) side of combat. Not to mention that part of the balance of the weapons is that you can run out of ammo. (gauss rifle says hello)

I don't think running out of ammo is going to scare off anymore who wants to play MWO. If you want an ammo-less option, then pilot an awesome. (or any of the other laser-boat mechs)

[The Cheese]

This is a joke poll, right?