734 replies to this topic

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Egomane, on 06 March 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I can't find a similar discussion in the Rasalhague, Kurita, Steiner and Liao Boards (even though I could swear we had one in Liao in the very beginning, but I guess it's just my imagination). Only Marik and Davion seem to be needing it. And the Marik thread has changed from its early intentions, so it leaves your house only. Guess that explains why I only noticed a heated debate here.

From my point of view the others are more into building a team and understanding for their house, while you are trying to create a structure that even in your house is not welcome by everyone. Take a step back, look around you, and try to think about why your way of doing it should be more successfull then that of the others. If you can find good reasons and are able to communicate them to your future comrades in arms (in virtual life), you might succeed in what you try to achieve.

And now I will leave this thread for good. There are to many knifes pointed my way and my doctor said, I should avoid getting stabbed because it is not good for my health.

I haven't proposed a specific structure - only that structure would help us in staying organized and keeping everyone in touch and aware of what is happening. I doubt anyone here takes issue with that.

Edit: Why would you engage people in discussion and then leave the thread?

Edited by lahyenne, 06 March 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Egomane]

*sneaks in one last time*

Because it is a discussion for your house. I shouldn't intervene in it the way I did. But at the same time I wanted to broaden your/our perspective on the topic a little. I hope I achieved that.

I'm more at home when I can be the sneaky little capellan that tries to sabotage a discussion of my neighbors. But sometimes my good side wins and I try to help even my worst enemy.

And before I finally leave for good (I'm not coming back to this thread for at least three pages ) the structure you proposed is a military one.

lahyenne, on 06 March 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

To achieve that level of organization, we will need to emulate basic concepts of military command.

[Meneiupptus]

To Azantia,

It is easier to lead a warrior than a soldier. You give them a cause and they do it, You give them a goal and they head for it, You give them a target and they kill it. You observe their reactions and demeanor and you can get them to do anything within their mindset... to the maximum of their ability. With a soldier you have to continuously ride them, goad them and even the proverbial lash to get them to do what you want. I'm not young Azantia I have seen many types of people and I can tell you from first hand knowledge the way to lead a warrior is to simply let them do their jobs within your stated goal... after that its all over but the crying.

I never stated that the old system was better.. I stated what the old system was and who I, personally, would jump to for. Whoever got the burr under your saddle wasn't me. Take all the information and play appropriately ro your playstyle.

Personally, and everything I state will always be my personal opinion, I plan to go with what I know works.. and works well. If we lose from then on we will modify the system till we win. Then we will fight until the enemy gets better and we have to modify the system again to beat them... Their is your beautiful war.

Also in my personal opinion... a true Warrior defends not attacks. The Ultimate goal of a warrior is peace. We fight to protect those who cannot. Also that Soldier's creed was not the same one they taught in my time... it went something allong the lines of protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States and its people... but then again we may be from different countries.

[Azantia]

Ah, your point is clarified, and I see what you are saying, and I see where the disconnect is.

OKay rephrase : Warriors are more demanding of their leaders and as such are less likely to follow (be harder to lead) than a Soldier.

In terms of sheer "work" or in your opinion "leadership" (Providing the purpose motivation and direction) a soldier who is less motivated takes "more"

I get you, and I can understand that.

I guess what I am saying is this : As far as leadership goes, it takes a STRONGER leader to lead a Warrior (because he is less accepting of lesser leadership) than it does to lead a soldier, but as far as pure execution of leadership (Having to be up the soldiers @** 24/7, a soldier is more difficult) a soldier is more difficult.

Is that a little closer to a middle ground between us Mene?

I agree with your assessment of a Warrior to a point....Ultimately I think it goes something like this, as this is the closest thing I have found to the self reflection of a Warrior in the Aftermath of experiencing war. I would like to say I did not write this, and I forget where i found it, but it has stuck with me and may not be perfect word for word with the original, but the concept remains the same.

I believe, that all good soldiers in the world have one thing in common,
We want to have something to hold on to; A Dream, where everyone can live in peace
And that we have compassion towards all mankind,
And we as veterans, around the world, should agree on one thing:
The one thing we do not want to ever return to, is the experience we have been through.

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Egomane, on 06 March 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

And before I finally leave for good (I'm not coming back to this thread for at least three pages ) the structure you proposed is a military one.

Well I don't understand how "military" is all that specific. And again, I don't think anyone is averse to the idea of a core group of players setting up some sort of chain of command to facilitate the logistics involved in building, maintaining, and advancing a House-specific community.

[Meneiupptus]

I agree Azantia. It takes an Alpha to lead a warrior because every Warrior is a leader in their own right... regardless of how much they deny it. It takes repore, respect and a good dose of competency to keep the Warriors in line. On that note... not every leader is a Warrior or an Alpha... that is what sucks with time based systems of military and para-military organizations.

The definition of Military changes when you are military based... you get to doing it a certain way and if it works roll with it or as we say... Fall In to it.

Edited by Meneiupptus, 06 March 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[Azantia]

Glad we could come to a mutual agreement, I was beginning to think that was impossible with some of the people here. Also lets me know I havent gone completely crazy...yet.

[LordRush]

Ok then...lets take a look at what we,meaning all of us, can bring to the table.

I know Pappy has been doing his get togethers and that sounds like a good medium. Tough for some of us however to make it to each one but... I for one would like to attend in order for us to just get to know each other. Forums just ooooze misinterpretation.
We all need to be on the same page. Communication is crucial.
Not sure just how much we can begin evaluating but...at least we can begin discussing the variables.After all, we KNOW it will be one of two possibilities

I would also like to further the topic of AI vs Human controlled House[s]. As it stands the variables of each platform is so extensive its possible to get hot and heavy on one side [as it already has happened] we totally leave out the other variable which is possibly the route we will go. We need to be prepared for any situation.

I also believe we need to begin establishing a motive into what House Davion will be here on MWO . AI or Human driven , torn pages from the past to present fitted together.

When you break it all down, at this moment, a COC is really the last thing we should be addressing. Figuring out how,what,when and where should be in order first. Who knows....after establishing a criteria we may just end up finding out who our MWO leaders are?

Edited by LordRush, 07 March 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[NetRDR]

coc aint anything to worry about, with an experienced based real time game its goin to take several weeks after launch before we need to worry about anything bigger than company level as the max fights are going to be 12v12 matches, as such we should be focusing on is trying to get all of the davion players talking to each other by either playing some mw4 games, while mwo aint goin to be mw4 it gets us all playing together and we can build up groups of ppl who work together well, pick some lance or even company comanders and the rest of the coc will come off the back of that.

[XMenSF]

Stone GKR, on 29 February 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

You know you have been playing a game series too long when you see the same conversations happen again and again. Part of this posting mirrors a reply I got from some person named "Qin" back on Solaris in a conversation we had. I guess "what goes around" as they say. You may feel better in knowing that some of the same people that are in the CoC now were saying the same things about who should be in the command back in the late 1990"s era of Solaris.

I think I told you Qin that you "Solaris" folks would face this one day. Said in good humor old friend.

House Command: The key to a House Command post is that the person MUST be able to put the House above any loyalty to his old unit. If they cant, trouble will follow as other units will feel slighted. House Command can be fun, but also tends to be a thankless job. There is always someone who thinks they can do it better.

To the person that posted about leading troops in real life: Man there are some stories I could tell you about "leaders" in MPBT. I mean real drinking and laughing stuff.

Bottom line is this is a GAME. People seem to forget this. Have fun, find a way to work together and cut out the months of endless bickering.

I will tell you Qin is a good guy. Well was a good guy last I talked to him for any stretch, so give him a chance. Now Rush? Well as I am not on "your list" sorry; No Soup for YOU!

Stone

In fact...correct me if i'm wrong...that was at our command meeting. Gawd how do we remember these things
hehe

[Kyll Long]

Stone GKR, on 05 March 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

The answer is: POLITICS! Each conflict featured Superior forces constrained by Political decisions leading to defeat in 2 cases, with the 3rd case pending. It is hard for us "old timers" to remember that we are dealing with folks that were not around back then. But another case in point is this.

7th Corps conducted the "Hail Mary" in Desert Storm to defeat Iraq. 6 months later it was destroyed by Democrats in Congress as part of the "peace dividend". The pen was mightier than the sword.

People Define "Warrior" in different ways. That is just the way we are. But what is all this "demanding"? I read post the seem to be an angry person demanding others prove themselves to you. Notice I said "seem". This is an online game. What we did real life in the Army does not translate well here. But stop demanding people prove they should be able to say something.

This should be fun, not a fight. Stop dividing ourselves up. The first House that pulls everyone together will be the strongest.

Stone

Holy crap Stone's still around Good to see ya wish Dave and Joe were here.

[Rogan Lysis]

I really don't understand any of this bickering at all. If there is a CoC we'll have to see what the developers have in mind. If you're trying to influence the developers by posting on the forums I think you're barking up the wrong tree. In fact, it's downright impolite. I was always under the impression that in a RPG the DM was in charge of the world and as a player, you are in charge of your character. It's simple etiquette. All games have rules, once we learn them, the race is on. All this chest thumping and talking about past glories seems counterproductive and will probably put you behind the curve.

[Qin]

Well, judging from the suggestion forum, i think a lot of people will disagree with the idea that they are barking up the wrong tree

But then again its not about influencing the devs, as they are not really going to implement player control of the House in any big way. That will eventually leave us to pick up the slack.

With the great number of people that have interest in the game, and with people from all over the planet joining the game, this will place us in a unique situation. We will have battles going on 24x7 minus the downtime if they have any. While you do your battles in the evening, some others will be fighting when you are asleep, or off to work etc.

Whether you are a part of a Group, Merc Unit or a Lone Wolf, the bottom line is that if you win battles and wars you and the House will win and gain from it.

To do that we will need good communications between all the groups in the House. I think it will be safe to say that with so many people in game, and so many planets for each house we will not be fighting all on the same planet. You don't want to fight all evening to gain some planets, to find the next cycle they are all back in enemy hands because when you where asleep or at work, nobody took over from you.

Next to coordinating assaults, and defense, there are a host of other things that can be done. Think of training newbies how to drive the mech, or more advanced training in specific roles, or teach people how to use the commander position and options to full effect.

There will be no DM doing that, that's something that we the players will need to do.

[nightsniper]

Qin, on 29 March 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Well, judging from the suggestion forum, i think a lot of people will disagree with the idea that they are barking up the wrong tree

But then again its not about influencing the devs, as they are not really going to implement player control of the House in any big way. That will eventually leave us to pick up the slack.

With the great number of people that have interest in the game, and with people from all over the planet joining the game, this will place us in a unique situation. We will have battles going on 24x7 minus the downtime if they have any. While you do your battles in the evening, some others will be fighting when you are asleep, or off to work etc.

Whether you are a part of a Group, Merc Unit or a Lone Wolf, the bottom line is that if you win battles and wars you and the House will win and gain from it.

To do that we will need good communications between all the groups in the House. I think it will be safe to say that with so many people in game, and so many planets for each house we will not be fighting all on the same planet. You don't want to fight all evening to gain some planets, to find the next cycle they are all back in enemy hands because when you where asleep or at work, nobody took over from you.

Next to coordinating assaults, and defense, there are a host of other things that can be done. Think of training newbies how to drive the mech, or more advanced training in specific roles, or teach people how to use the commander position and options to full effect.

There will be no DM doing that, that's something that we the players will need to do.

I strongly agree the online games market has changed just like my hair going grey there is not a lot you can do about it. THe global play is far greater today then even 5 years ago and MMO's like this one are playing to a world audience. 24/7 is the norm as we all know.

I have to agree that training and small group tactics seem likely to be the key to success in the this game as the clues from the developers suggest not the head of the house showing up on the field with an Atlas and turning the tide. Also the size of the unit itself and the diversity. By that I am suggesting having global players capable of defending 24/7 may be just as important. On the Chat I suggested that getting out infront of this would be a key to success. I still feel just as strongly about that point. Pappy seems to have taken the lead on building his legions and he has agreat model working today. I hope Qin and LordRush will follow in the same avanue, I know it seems premeture to maybe risk losing people because of the time lag before a launch is possible but again capitaizing on the energy the Devs are trying to put into this lead up phase maybe a perfect opportunity to move forward as well drop out will occur now and during the game Life comes first but it is the big MO that will determine the overall success.

Anyway again great to see so many from the drops in 3025 and MW4 etc.

I will take a moment to chuckle at seeing X posting I thought it was still to early in spring to see him out but hey he still is the best trainer in the stars.

[Jack Gallows]

It really comes down to how they'll handle how much control we have.

If we're just doing drops and taking contracts from the universe overview panel, then it's mostly going to work itself out within particular groups of units/friends. It all hinges on how much we get to control where we really go, which I don't think is going to be as drastic as some think.

If a planet gets taken while you're asleep, just take it back or take another one. Planets are going to change hands, it's going to be fluid, trying to get a command structure to keep funneling people to X or Y planet is only going to work for a small grouping of people. There's going to be a lot of people who just click and go "I want to pick this contract, gives me more money/loyalty points/etc." and not listen to the people going "We need to hold this world! Everyone go!"

I'm going to pick what's best for my unit, regardless of what any kind of CoC thinks we should do.

[L zard]

Get some, Hangman!

[nightsniper]

This is precisely what I have been talking about Jack Gallows. Unit Leaders playing the game as if the rest of the world did not exist, I for one share your opinion but, we need to have some adults in the room regardless which way the Devs and players want it to go. I have been suggesting to many of my old friends and former game mates that the unit that grows and develops unit play will have the greatest influence over the game and the house. Outside of the game I hope house davion develops it's own plans and coordinates independent units like ours outside of the game so we can be the power house organization we have always been even in the storyline.

Here is to unit play and a comprehensive stratergy!

[Jack Gallows]

nightsniper, on 31 March 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

we need to have some adults in the room regardless which way the Devs and players want it to go.

This line doesn't quite engender feelings of cohesion or lend you much credibility with me.

nightsniper, on 31 March 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Here is to unit play and a comprehensive stratergy!

My post didn't quite negate the possibility of this or that I'd have my unit play nice with others, but I'm definitely not convinced there needs to be a CoC in place to make the House successful, especially with how little we know about the actual game system.

[nightsniper]

The Adults comment was refering to allowing people who understand the game to make their own decissions not be ruled by someone they may or may not know. Fact of the matter in an MMO in my opinion it may be impossible to control a 24/7 operation from any kind of central organization.

Still as Pappy has been trying to organize ided leaders to build a sense of we are all inthis together in one way or another is the point that a purpose and stratergy that is generally understood will benefit us all.

Maybe this is moving the discussion to far forward until we get more from the Devs and see if it would even remotely apply still, we have received many statements and clues as to what they are thinking now and addressing this is not inappropriate at this time.

The premise is battles are likely to key on lance level play and tactics
Their is likely to be some kind of COC either in the game structure or outside of the actual play

So agreeing to those simple points now and continueing to craft how we organize may pay dividends in the future when (if) the game launches. This may not be what you had in mind Jack but I was mainly agreeing with your concept of unit play and lance play as the cornerstone.

[Eagle HH]

I think this topic tends to go astray much because people aren't sure what to expect in game, which is fine but some may need to understand that failing to prepare is preparing to fail. Understand that there will be those that want to follow and those that want to build something. A house CoC means building leadership and communication outside of just the regular unit. Structuring many house units together to fight as 1 will be powerful no matter how you look at it, when you can coordinate numbers strategically it is just powerful. It can be far superior than "let things work itself out when we launch". This is all about being organized and communicating on a dynamic war arena. Don't lose sight of that......

So what this means is the progress that is made in moving forward with a house CoC will create something that the regular unit can lend itself to in the larger scale of battle, even just for the fact that we can have a lot of fun coordinating larger scale attacks to a single region. We the players have all the choice of who we fight for and who we fight against, think of the fun when full scale attack is declared against a single house. There are clear benefits to working cohesively.

There are obviously people that want to try to shoot down the idea but the fact is try or not you can't stop it. It is a game for the player and it is for the player to decide how they play or choose to lead. I hope you guys grow your leadership and your participation because in the end it means that you are preparing for success. For the people that want nothing of it, they just can't see outside of what they are capable of. It doesn't mean there is no place in the game for them, there is a place for everyone, just don't let the naysayers hold you back from your progress and build something great for those loyal to the house to be a part of.

~S~