37 replies to this topic

[Namwons]

In the table top, i believe 1 jump jet propels you one space or 30m. This same jump jet propels a mech the same distance no matter the weight ,25-100t. This is all good for a board game with hexes, but now that we are working with a physics engine.

I believe we should deviate from TT and allow it to calculate thrust to weight ratio. We already know the weights of our mechs, if we assign a certian thrust per jump jet, we would have a real jumping distance, since there wont be any hexes in the game. This would change up the game a bit though. Two jump jets on a 25t mech might propel it just as far as 4 jump jets on a 50t mech. Things might have to be tweeked for things like the Spector which mounts 7 jump jets. That would be a crazy jumper.

What do you guys think? Should JJ propel every mech the same distance if they have the same amount of JJs? or Should the same amount of JJ propel lighter mechs further?

Edited by Namwons, 05 April 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Dihm]

As you increase the mech in weight, the tonnage of "1 jump jet" increases to balance it out. "1 jump jet" on a 100 ton mech ways much more than "1 jump jet" on a 20 tonner. It becomes fairly prohibitive in the Assault class, which is why you see so few Assaults with them, while they are pretty common among Lights and Mediums.

Edited by Dihm, 05 April 2012 - 09:00 AM.

[geck0 icaza]

Jump jets jump the same distance in the table top. This is because they get HEAVIER for larger mechs and LIGHTER for smaller mechs.

Example: 1/2 ton for medium mechs and 1 ton for heavy mechs.

There's no need to deviate as it already makes sense.

[Kudzu]

20-55 tons- 1 jump jet costs .5 tons.
60-85 tons- 1 jump jet costs 1 ton.
90-100 tons- 1 jump jet costs 2 tons.

This is why they move you the same distance.

[BarHaid]

Ah, but one jumpjet weighs the same for a 20 tonner as it does for an 55 tonner. That's a pretty broad range. Let's either break the jumpjets into .25 ton increments (and break the weight ranges accordingly), or let the physics engine push one mech farther on one jumpjet than another.

Or both!

[Wil Scarlet]

It seems to me that just because the size and weight of the jump jet gets bigger as the size of the mech goes up does not equal out in thrust. The mechanics of that seems off and i'll ask if our Mechanical Engineers of the world would care to explain that. I always figured the reason you didn't see JJ's on assaut classes was less to do with weight as it was with it taking up physical space. Space that can be used for Ammo Weapons Armor or Heat Sinks... It seems very unrealistic to see a 100 ton mech flying thru the air on basically compressed air...

[Ghost73]

Quote

What about Jump Jets?

Jump Jets in MechWarrior Online are chassis specific. If a BattleMech comes with Jump Jets, then a player can add/remove as they wish.

From the Dev Blog

When I first read this I figured JJs would be an enable/disable option in the Mechlab. However, it seems like from the wording, a player could add more than one JJ. However, I am still of the opinion that the choice in the Mechlab will either be you have them or you don't.

[Pht]

I presume the OP is making the false assumption that the jumpjets are not sized on a per-chassis basis.

[BerryChunks]

You guys realize that different chassis (read: weight and shape) use different manufacturer jump jets, and it is presumed they scale the size and power accordingly.


edit: Damn you, ninja poster!

Edited by BerryChunks, 05 April 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[Kudzu]

BarHaid, on 05 April 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Ah, but one jumpjet weighs the same for a 20 tonner as it does for an 55 tonner. That's a pretty broad range. Let's either break the jumpjets into .25 ton increments (and break the weight ranges accordingly), or let the physics engine push one mech farther on one jumpjet than another.

Or both!

That's all of the lights and mediums, the mech classes you'd expect to see/need jumping manueverability the most.

[BarHaid]

Kudzu, on 05 April 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

That's all of the lights and mediums, the mech classes you'd expect to see/need jumping manueverability the most.

True, but I think the original point is still valid. TT jumpjet weights are pretty abstracted for ease of use. That abstraction isn't really necessary here.

[MaddMaxx]

Ghost73, on 05 April 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

[b]
From the Dev Blog

When I first read this I figured JJs would be an enable/disable option in the Mechlab. However, it seems like from the wording, a player could add more than one JJ. However, I am still of the opinion that the choice in the Mechlab will either be you have them or you don't.

Yup. At purchase time, your Mech, be it Stock or via Variant, either has JJ's on it or it does not. That will be decided before ever getting to the ML. Once in the Lab, you may take off those Jets, or replace those Jets that have been removed, but only onto a Mech that had them as standard.

A Mech that starts without JJ's as Stock, gets no such upgrade allowance in the Lab.

[Kudzu]

BarHaid, on 05 April 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

True, but I think the original point is still valid. TT jumpjet weights are pretty abstracted for ease of use. That abstraction isn't really necessary here.

At the same time, I don't see the need to add complexity where it's not needed, either.

[wwiiogre]

the table top rules allow for physics and the jump jets are not one size fits all, they weigh more based on the overall weight of your mech. Meaning the Jump Jet that allows you to jump 60 meters or two table top hexes weighs less in a 20 ton mech than in a 100 ton mech. Physics at work. Is it exact, no, is it perfect no. Does it work, yes.

chris

[geck0 icaza]

This is why I A) love the devs, and b think this is a moot point.

http://www.zam.com/s...tml?story=29458


Lead Designer Paul Inouye

' I take into account the vast history and technology base that makes up the BattleTech Universe and make sure we stick to it as closely as gameplay will allow. '

Edited by geck0 icaza, 05 April 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[osito]

Don't make more complicated then it has to be. I think the added weight increase to jj is enough. If we make each weight class vary its jump distance even when they have the same # of j.j will only mean more programming and time wasted for the devs. Keep the basic rules that work well with this system and allow the devs to get more work done.

[Solis Obscuri]

Wil_Scarlet, on 05 April 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

It seems to me that just because the size and weight of the jump jet gets bigger as the size of the mech goes up does not equal out in thrust. The mechanics of that seems off and i'll ask if our Mechanical Engineers of the world would care to explain that. I always figured the reason you didn't see JJ's on assaut classes was less to do with weight as it was with it taking up physical space. Space that can be used for Ammo Weapons Armor or Heat Sinks... It seems very unrealistic to see a 100 ton mech flying thru the air on basically compressed air...

As a mechanical engineer, I think the whole thing is pretty questionable. I mean, seriously, consider how much time and money went into developing purpose-built STOVL/VTOL platforms like the Harrier or the Osprey, and quite a few of both have still been lost due to training accidents or operator error. Now you're trying to do that with a big clunky robot that stands upright, isn't really designed to fly, doesn't have convenient locations for control thrusters, and has a CG and weight distribution that are less than ideal for sustained hovering?

But within BT fluff, it all works out, because battlemechs are awesome. I think the general rationale of jump jets is as follows:

• The more jump jets you have, the farther and faster you can move
  
• The larger your engine is relative to the size/weight of your 'mech, the more jump jets you can mount
  
• As the size of a 'mech chassis increases, the mass of a single jump jet increases

So for a fixed engine size, yes, you could mount more jump jets in a lighter 'mech and propel it further, but as long as a heavier and larger 'mech has a strong enough engine and enough jump jets to generate a proportionate amount of thrust, it can jump just as far as a smaller 'mech.

Now, from a physics perspective, this doesn't entirely make sense - the more jump jets you add, the more thrust you get, and the faster you accelerate, but really, range is a function of flight duration as well. More jump jets would allow you to travel faster within the same amount of time, of course, but the duration of flight would depend on how long the engine could sustain thrust to the jump jets, and I would expect an engine could sustain a lesser number of jets for longer than a greater number before the engine began to vent too much heat and risk shut-down (though, of course, there is the question of how long the jump jet itself could sustain the heat and stresses before failure!) However, within the BT TT rules, eveything is measured in 10 second increments, so jump distance was how far those jets propelled you in 10 seconds. Since the MW video games did not function in 10s increments, the jump jet meter was developed to limit flight distance by limiting flight time.

[TheRulesLawyer]

I wouldn't mind seeing the jump jet weight cost be a little more granular, but it would break many existing designs. As is, the mass of the mech is factored in.

[GySgt Sev Skirata]

I say use the physics engine. While the heavier mechs may have heavier jets they are also built like steel blocks. They don't have the aero dynamics of the lighter mechs. At the very least the light mechs should be able to go through the air much faster than their heavier counter parts.

[originalvapor]

MaddMaxx, on 05 April 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Yup. At purchase time, your Mech, be it Stock or via Variant, either has JJ's on it or it does not. That will be decided before ever getting to the ML. Once in the Lab, you may take off those Jets, or replace those Jets that have been removed, but only onto a Mech that had them as standard.

A Mech that starts without JJ's as Stock, gets no such upgrade allowance in the Lab.

Alright, as a long time TT playermech customization is part of the game, MW 4's restriction on chassis was at first an interesting idea but soon went to far. Just because in the factory this mech had A/C in its arm does that really mean a mechanic cannot replace the A/C with a large laser or PPC using the original casing. All that is needed is power connections and targeting adjustments to the cockpit comp, as heat is regulated throiugh the engine that is not a real concern and the PPC has internal restrictions to prevent critical overload. that point made, why cant jump jet trhusters also be built into an existing design. there are many Base line mech variants that differ vastly from the original design opening up varying options. Why can't a mechanic do the same as a mech lab/ hangar fictionally have all the components and tools needed to completely repair and replce mech parts, weapons etc. Same goes for Jump jets. as for the JJ to Tonage as said before the weight increases with the mech and one post say 4 jump jets on a light same distance as a assualt. not true look at the weight 4JJ on a light = 4 jj on an assault mech 4 hexs/120 meters on a light= 1hex/30M on and assualt. Physics question answered.