37 replies to this topic

[verybad]

Jets for larger mechs weigh more. This is already covered in the TT rules. So while you could go further and make it increase in mass a small amount every tonnage unit, there's really no good reason.

I'm not a "die hard, must be by TT rules" fan, though I'm pretty familiar with them all. However here is a place where making the jets more incremental as they increase is really a waste of time. The differences wouldn't affect gameplay enough to matter much.

The way I see it, if the game can be improved trough the advantages that the digital format (video game vrs TT game), then do it. However change for the sake of change's sake, with no improvement in gameplay overall is a waste of time and energy best spend on other things.

[Felbombling]

I like the way jump jets would work in the regular Battletech. If you allow for fractional accounting, jump jets of one certain tonnage having stock thrust to weight ratio, etc, etc., someone will mount as many jump jets as possible for their weight class and start bounding around the game map, never landing. I don't want that, and I'm sure many other people don't want that, either. You should have your max jumping distance tied directly to your Mech tonnage and engine capacity, end of story. Jump jets would work out pretty simply and I cannot imagine why we need to burden the dev team with all this extra number-crunching.

The boards have not really touched on speed yet, to my knowledge, so I will give a quick run down. Your engine gives you a speed rating, based on your Mech tonnage. So, for example, the Hunchback has a 200 rated engine. That was determined by multiplying the Mech tonnage [50] by the desired movement speed [4 walking]. The Mech gets a bonus on the 4 walking movement points to calculate running speed, normally the walking speed multiplied by 1.5, rounded down. For the Hunchback, this would be 6. So the Hunchback has a movement speed of 4/6. The amount of jump jets the Mech can carry would be directly related to the walking movement speed of 4. Each jump jet propels the Mech 30m, with a height of 6m [if I recall height correctly]. Thus, the Hunchback could have a max movement of 4/6/4 with a 200 rated engine. The jump jets would allow for leaps of 120m, to a maximum height of 24m.

This is how the mech would be viewed in TT play, at any rate. If the dev fellas/gals decide that they need a better system, so be it.

[verybad]

originalvapor, on 06 April 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Alright, as a long time TT playermech customization is part of the game, MW 4's restriction on chassis was at first an interesting idea but soon went to far. Just because in the factory this mech had A/C in its arm does that really mean a mechanic cannot replace the A/C with a large laser or PPC using the original casing. All that is needed is power connections and targeting adjustments to the cockpit comp, as heat is regulated throiugh the engine that is not a real concern and the PPC has internal restrictions to prevent critical overload. that point made, why cant jump jet trhusters also be built into an existing design. there are many Base line mech variants that differ vastly from the original design opening up varying options. Why can't a mechanic do the same as a mech lab/ hangar fictionally have all the components and tools needed to completely repair and replce mech parts, weapons etc. Same goes for Jump jets. as for the JJ to Tonage as said before the weight increases with the mech and one post say 4 jump jets on a light same distance as a assualt. not true look at the weight 4JJ on a light = 4 jj on an assault mech 4 hexs/120 meters on a light= 1hex/30M on and assualt. Physics question answered.

Many of those changes are extremely complex, and require factory adjustments, not somethign you can just do in the field.

How complex do you think a gyroscope that adjusts to the pilots neurohelment's send of balance would need to be if it's not set up in the factory to handle jumping?

Those power cables have to go through actuators (joints), if the actuators aren't designed to handle a certain thing, then you might start getting all sorts of problems.

A mech isn't a whole bunch of separate things that you stimply bolt together and it all works. It's an incredibly complex war machine designed at the height of mankinds technological prowess. The production of mechs is so challenging that even nations with close to a TRILLION citizens and Hundreds of Worlds have only a few mech factories available to them as a whole.

They're not made of legos, where you just put things together and it works. Relative to each citizen, each mech is is about as common an item as Aircraft Carriers are to each American citizen today. Technicians that know how to work on them aren't a dime a dozen, and the technology isn't rocket science, it's more complex than that.

Edited by verybad, 06 April 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[GrimJim]

Namwons,

Way to load the poll questions by your phrasing.... What do you work for the New York Times?

[Monky]

You should have done a little more research into the table top rules before posting such a strongly worded poll, TT rules are not a bible, the physics engine allows us to do stuff the TT game had to make improvisations for more accurately than could be done with hexes and short maps, but jump jet weight increases by 2x for each weight class you go up. 0.5 tons for light, 1 ton for med, 2 ton for heavy, and 4 ton for assault. This automatically balances the thrust output vs number of jumpjets per ton of weight on the chassis.

essentially take this example;

1 jumpjet on a 20 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 2.5% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 80 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 4 tons or 5% of the mech's carry weight.

interestingly, the higher in the weight class you go, the better off jump jets get (which is why you see good firepower, survivably armored and speedy Jenners running around with 5 of them) for example

1 jump jet on a 35 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons, or 1.4% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 100 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 4 tons, or 4% of the mech's carry weight.

If there is any nonsensical math here it is only between different weights within a weight class.

[Felbombling]

Your 80 and 100 ton jump jet weights are incorrect, monky. Actual are 1 ton per for the 80 and 2 tons per for the 100... or those were the totals when I stopped playing a decade ago.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 06 April 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[William Petersen]

From what I can find, the correct tonnage per jet is:

20-55 - .5 tons
60-85 - 1 ton
90-100 - 2 tons.

[Monky]

Interesting, I hopped into a mech designer using 5th edition rules here; http://remlab.sourceforge.net/

and it seems you guys are correct, I must have been using improved jump jets on the 100 and 80 tonners
Let's redo the math then -

1 jumpjet on a 20 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 2.5% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 25 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 2% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 30 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 1.65% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jump jet on a 35 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons, or 1.4% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 40 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 1.25% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 45 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 1.1% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 50 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 1% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 55 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 0.9% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 60 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons, or 1.65% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 65 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.5% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 70 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.4% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 75 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.3% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 80 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.25% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 85 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.1% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 90 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 4 tons or 2.2% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 95 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 4 tons or 2.1% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 100 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 4 tons or 2% of the mech's carry weight.

That is a bit different picture, it shows 85, 75, 55, and 35 tonners as highly efficient models for jumpjets and light weight 20 tonners as the least efficient overall, with 55 tonners most efficient overall.

That's a bit odd, maybe there could be some tweaking to this so that it is a bit more scalar and favorable toward lighter mechs?

[Morashtak]

This is another item that could be dealt with a slider, same as engines and armor;

Less <===============O=====> More

Everything breaks down into decimal point (or whole points for armor, etc) ranges so there is no longer any 1/2, whole or none restrictions.

Ex.
Want just 6 more points of armor, no problem. Push that slider up just a tad. Need to reduce something in order to stay within weight? Just reduce your jump range a tick or two. Got a bit of weight just begging to be used but you've max'd everything you want? Tweak the engine size up a bit until those last couple of tons disappear.

Computer code can give us so much more options than what can be done in a static map TT setting.

[TheRulesLawyer]

monky, on 06 April 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Interesting, I hopped into a mech designer using 5th edition rules here; http://remlab.sourceforge.net/

and it seems you guys are correct, I must have been using improved jump jets on the 100 and 80 tonners
Let's redo the math then -

1 jumpjet on a 20 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 2.5% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 25 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 2% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 30 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 1.65% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jump jet on a 35 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons, or 1.4% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 40 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 1.25% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 45 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 1.1% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 50 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 1% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 55 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 0.5 tons or 0.9% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on a 60 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons, or 1.65% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 65 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.5% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 70 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.4% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 75 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.3% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 80 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.25% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 85 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 1 tons or 1.1% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 90 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 4 tons or 2.2% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 95 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 4 tons or 2.1% of the mech's carry weight.
1 jumpjet on an 100 ton mech = 30 meters, weighs 4 tons or 2% of the mech's carry weight.

That is a bit different picture, it shows 85, 75, 55, and 35 tonners as highly efficient models for jumpjets and light weight 20 tonners as the least efficient overall, with 55 tonners most efficient overall.

That's a bit odd, maybe there could be some tweaking to this so that it is a bit more scalar and favorable toward lighter mechs?

I don't see why lights should be more necessarily be better in efficiency. Maybe set it at at straight 1.5% of mass and let fractional accounting take care of the numbers. The only real issue is that you're going to break a whole lot of canon designs for what amounts to no good reason. I supposed you could do it the other way around and say that X tons of JJ gets you a set distance of jump per mass unit. That way you wouldn't break loadouts on canon mechs. You would just be adjusting how far they went.

[Solis Obscuri]

In BT, most things seem to be rounded to a ton or half-ton. This benefits some things and penalizes others.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

More to the point, it's a system a lot of people know by heart and I'm not sure PGI are into changing things they don't have to. Having said that, it mught make sense for them to do so in the long run if it makes balance tweaking easier for them. As we don't have hexes who would notice if a mech jumped 141m instead of 150? The same logic could be applied to mech speeds, which could be adjusted a bit with engine tweaking. It would allow much finer adjustment as Morashtak said. Again as long as the relative speeds were modelled correctly I doubt nyone would notice. What it would do is equalise the different weights taking out the "sweet spots", ie 35, 55, 75 and 100.

[Black Sunder]

The jets get bigger and more powerful as your mech increases in tonnage. I voted Yes. You're never gonna find a 100 ton mech that jumps 210 meters though. Thats 14 tons wasted.

[sierra gulf]

I don't think it is necessary to stick to the TT rules just for their own sake, especially since they heavily influenced practical considerations for a pen and paper game with different mechanics that a video game. That being said, I don't think there is any need to vary significantly from the TT in the case of jump jets as I think it would unnecessarily complicate the mechlab and the logistics aspect of the game. It is also worth noting that in the TT the engine rating is a major determinant in the thrust generated by a mech's jump jets. However, I am not opposed to some variation the jumping distance such that a 20 ton mech with a 180m jump radius could jump a little farther than a 45 ton mech with the same jump radius, or perhaps be able to cover the distance a little faster.

[Goldhawk]

Um, I know there are two sides of either jump jets providing the necessary thrust to propel a larger mech an equal distance then fewer jets on a lighter mech, I agree with the physics ratio. The issue of not putting jump jets on just about every mech is good, even though many battles in the MW universe have sacrificed weapons on their mechs for jump jets. Prime example, in the Jade Phoenix saga, Aidan Pryde did away with his machine guns, medium pulse lasers, for jump jets on his Timberwolf. Hell, they even discuss a Warhawk jumping across a river in that book. Now, would you like to get blindsided by an Awesome that jumped to the top of a mountain, went passive sensors, and then started ripping your back to tissue paper? I think not! Thus, lighter mechs and certain mechs should get jump jets.

[ice trey]

What the opening post doesn't tell you is that individual jump jets weigh differently according to how heavy a 'mech is.

For example, Jump jets for light and medium 'mechs only weigh a half-ton each.

However, you get into the heavy 'mechs, they start to weigh a ton each.

Assault 'mechs, jump jets weigh two tons each.

So do I believe that the number of jump jets should affect it and not the weight of the 'mech? Yes, I do, because the size and therefore the thrust of the jump jets are already changing between weight classes.

Also, you're capped to a certain jump distance based on how big the engine is on a 'mech. In the tabletop, a 'mech that would move with a walking speed 5 and a running speed of 8 would only be able to jump 5 hexes, or in other words, 54Kph walk, 86kph run, and 150 meters jumping distance (Mind you, that's distance, not height. Height is more like 30-meters).

Edited by ice trey, 06 April 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[Tuhalu]

Poor poll is poor. If you meant to say "should the same tonnage of jump jets result in lighter mechs jumping further?" I could agree with that. Because then it would equate to what the table top rules state.

In TT, the jump jets values are an abstraction. Weight varies by tonnage, while the number of criticals vary. Even then, two different mechs may have a different number of exhaust ports to achieve the same jump jet value.

Unlike the computer games, jump jets are not intended to make a player fly forever. Jump jets function by opening an exhaust port in your fusion engine and igniting a discrete supply of fuel. This is why you can't jump further than your walking movement speed allows for. You're engine just can't supply more power than that. It's also why jump jets cause so much heat when used!

By lore, Jump Jets have a limited number of times they can fire before requiring refueling. This is completely ignored in the TT.

[Fooooo]

The easiest way is to use the physics engine already there in cryengine3. (PGI may have made a couple of changes to it also)

There is pretty much only 2 things the devs have to setup for each mechs JJ's then.

1. Thrust
2. Duration

The physics engine then takes care of the rest using all the info it is given.... (mech weights, air resistance etc etc)

Its also the most realistic way to approach it and will "feel" right as long as Thrust/duration are set right.

Saves having to implement all this silly code just to try and simulate the TT system for JJ's, which is far from realistic IMO.