34 replies to this topic

[Volturnus]

Timelordwho, on 31 October 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

AC/20 has a pretty useful usage in drawing fire and zone control since it can threaten complete component destruction at much higher structure levels.

If someone has a AC2s or an (U)AC5 I can probably risk going in with a pretty broken mech for a hit and run strike, where I can deal with a hit or two, but against an AC20 I'm risking losing my gun arm, a leg (IE a probable core), or core by choosing to engage.

It can also crush cockpits that still have armor on it. No other single weapon does the 15 structure + armor neccessary for that.

These are good points - I had forgotten about the scare factor of the AC/20, which is something you don't really notice until someone else is pointing one at you.

[MushrooMars]

Okay, so there's a lot of discussion about DPS vs. Burst, let me clarify a few things with a hypothetical situation.

Let's say we have weapon A, which weighs 2 tons, has a constant rate of fire, generates no heat, is ammo independent, and has a DPS of 10.

Now we also have weapon B, which weighs 15 tons, has a reload time of 20 seconds, generates fucktons of heat, and has a DPS of 5.

Now, which weapon would I take? Weapon B, all the way. Why? Well, weapon B has an alpha strike damage of 100, which is enough to core most mechs, barring an Atlas with maxed FerroFibrous armor. Once I get my shot off, I can run the **** away and power down while my weapon reloads and my mech cools (because you CAN power down and reload at the same time).

Problem is, that's an extreme situation. Let's apply it in game; You pop out of cover and shell an Atlas with an AC20, and pop back into cover while it reloads. Atlas continues crawling towards you, MENACINGLY, and you repeat the process a few times, and he's. Still. Coming.

Now compare that to something mounting 3 AC2s. Let's assume you're in a Hunchback and can do that. Now you're doing 6 damage every second, which means you will esceed the AC20's DPS after 4 seconds of continuous fire, and most likely go over that. That Atlas knows to get the **** out of there when you take out his torso armor after a few seconds of continuous fire.

[Tuoweit]

MushrooMars, on 31 October 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Let's apply it in game; You pop out of cover and shell an Atlas with an AC20, and pop back into cover while it reloads. Atlas continues crawling towards you, MENACINGLY, and you repeat the process a few times, and he's. Still. Coming.

Now compare that to something mounting 3 AC2s. Let's assume you're in a Hunchback and can do that. Now you're doing 6 damage every second, which means you will esceed the AC20's DPS after 4 seconds of continuous fire, and most likely go over that. That Atlas knows to get the **** out of there when you take out his torso armor after a few seconds of continuous fire.

Of course the Atlas can also shoot back at you much more easily if you're standing there firing continuously for the 10 seconds needed to do more than 60 damage, harder to do for him if you're ducking in and out with the AC/20.

[Buckminster]

You just can't overlook that 5 extra damage. It is the difference between blowing the head off of a mech, and merely giving him something to think about.

When I ran my Atlas, I had the AC/20, 3 SRM6 and 2 ML. I couldn't alpha more than 3-4 times before heat was a problem, but frankly, not much was left standing after 3-4 alphas. And I've certainly seen my fair share of mechs crumble on first shot - an AC/20 to the face is brutal - and that's something you don't see with a gauss.

And for the "aiming an AC/20 is hard" crowd - it just takes practice. I've been able to engage targets at 300-400 meters with it with a very high probability of hitting. Sure, it's not the range of a gauss, but my point is more that the AC/20 is more than just a "oh crap he's close" type of weapon.

Edited by Buckminster, 05 November 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[Airwolf]

One thing I didn't see mentioned about the LB10-X is that while the shotgun pattern/damage isn't all that great against a fresh, fully armored Mech, it's an excellent crit-seeker once the armor gets really thin or gone. Actually, the crit-seeking also holds true for MGs once the armor is pretty much gone plus the constant, *REALLY* annoying MG 'whine' in the cockpit of the Mech getting hit. Great weapons? Definitely not ... effective when used as intended/correctly? ... well ... your mileage will vary

As for the AC/20 ... all I can say is ... try it ... and not just once or twice ... while I'm not a particular fan of it personally, I've seen people use it to great effect.

Edited by Airwolf, 02 November 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[RFMarine]

i've tried being on both sides of a double ac2. the constant hammering and cockpit shake is a good pscychological weapon. example, it forces LRM boats to seek cover or run

[MustrumRidcully]

Airwolf, on 02 November 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

One thing I didn't see mentioned about the LB10-X is that while the shotgun pattern/damage isn't all that great against a fresh, fully armored Mech, it's an excellent crit-seeker once the armor gets really thin or gone. Actually, the crit-seeking also holds true for MGs once the armor is pretty much gone plus the constant, *REALLY* annoying MG 'whine' in the cockpit of the Mech getting hit. Great weapons? Definitely not ... effective when used as intended/correctly? ... well ... your mileage will vary

As for the AC/20 ... all I can say is ... try it ... and not just once or twice ... while I'm not a particular fan of it personally, I've seen people use it to great effect.

MW:O Crit rules do not work like the table top crit rules.

MG as crit seeker? Damage is still too low. Every internal component has 10 hit points. With a DPS of 0.4 that may be maximally modified to a DPS of 1.2 due to the crit damage multiplier. That means it would take you about 8 seconds to chew through a single component.

LB-10 X at least has a potential DPS of 4 going for it, so it would take 2.5 seconds to chew throw one single component.

But in both cases - if each shot/pellet you fire is actually randomly seperately per component, you're spreading the damage across the internal components. So you may actually take much longer to take down a component!


Best Crit-Seekers in MW:O?

1) AC/10, PPC. If you hit an internal component at all guaranteed destruction.
2) Gauss Rifle, AC/20. Sufficient single target damage to destroy any component - a bit too much actually, so you're not very efficient. Unless there is a damage transference rule for crits, then reverse 1 and 2.
3) Pulse Large Laser. Guaranteed Destruction if you can maintain the target for the full duration, if not, you can still hope for a crit multipler.
4) AC/5, Ultra AC/5. Requires critical damage multipler, but can lead to guaranteed destructions.
5) Medium Pulse Laser. If you can maintain fire long enough and get a good multiplier, guaranteed destruction.
6) Medium Laser. As above, but longer beam duration and less damage.
7) All other energy weapons can only get a good chance for guaranteed destruction in one shot if you're lucky.
8) AC/2, LB-X 10 AC, SRM, LRM. You must be really lucky with your rolls and roll a few high damage multipliers.
9) MG: So horribly bad damage output...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 03 November 2012 - 03:15 AM.

[Heretic1311]

Zelator, on 30 October 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

I just love taking out the quasimodo tumour on that hunchback in 1 or 2 shots.

In the german version of BT the Hunchback actually is translated, named Quasimodo.

Edited by Heretic1311, 03 November 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[Dexter Herbivore]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 October 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

How did you calculate the weight? DId you account for ammo and heat sinks to actually run these weapons? This can alter the efficiency quite a bit.

Also to note: Low rate of fire is not necessarily bad. It is excellent for sniping, but even in a brawl, it is helpful to not have to deliver a constrant stream of shots, as you can use th time in between to take evasive torso movements, directing shots at still well armored sections, and avoiding head shots.


---

I have my own damage/weight efficiency calculations...

The simple model - ammo for 3 minutes and heat sinks to make the weapon heat neutral:
There are two lines - one is merely based on DPS, the other is based on average damage output over 10 seconds plus the single shot damage, divided by 10. That is trying to weight the advantage of high single shot damage vs pure DPS.



A more complex model that uses "Targeted Enagement Times" as concept - again ammo for 3 minutes of continous fire, but only heat sinks that you can fire for at least 20 respectively 90 seconds before you overheat. This model is somewhat closer to practical concerns - yo udon't need to never overheat, but you don't want to overheat before you dealt with your enemy.

A proper analysis is never complete without a graph (and preferably a spreadsheet too).

[MustrumRidcully]

Whoa, blast of the past...

Here are new graphs however, if someone is still looking for stuff like that: http://mwomercs.com/...pon-effectively

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 28 January 2014 - 02:38 AM.

[White Bear 84]

Lol AC20 trash? What drugs are you on

[MingTheMerciless]

Great post and very useful. In my opinion, the AC/20 is quite situational though with the extra heat penalty it means there's less 'boom-boom-boom-boom' type of firing. I don't think anyone wants to get a faceful of AC/20 and a well placed single shot can take an arm or leg off any mech easily enough. Heck, I have one-headshotted a few unlucky mechs too. However, one needs to be careful if the AC/20 is the only weapon as ammo bins tend to be too small and I frequently run out. In the jagermech, this means relying on the pithy dual-SLAS for the remainder of the game.

The AC/2 is still a wee bit too hot - if they can cool it down somewhat, the quad-AC/2 flak mech will make its appearance again. I find the AC/5 to be the ballistic weapon of choice for me. The UAC/5 with a suitable macro / gaming mouse is also very intimidating but recent changes has pushed the AC/5 to the top for me. A fine balance of size, weight and damage. I will also mention that the effectiveness of any weapon is also down to good positional awareness of the mech pilot, team work, appropriate movement and a little bit of luck.

Mechs are NOT standing in a long line opposite each other as in the days of the Old Napoleanic era where musket fire was exchanged in a see-saw fashion.

[Buckminster]

I don't know if Finestaut is still here, but he should really update his first page to reflect the charge mechanic of the gauss. I know it's been a make or break point for a lot of people.

Although seriously - necropost anyone?

[wanderer]

Honestly, the OP is badly outdated and has been necrobumped for good measure, with data that's no longer even remotely valid in some cases.

In an era of Boomjagers, MG-spitting lights that buzzsaw internals, and Gauss rifles that no longer snapshot and are more likely to explode than ammo....OP's guide really isn't valid anymore.

[D Sync]

AC/20 is a monster of a cannon, my Raven loves to drop pop-tarts with just one.


MG's? Oh yea, perfect ballistic weapon for lights.


It isn't always the size of your cannon, most times it is just how you use it.