68 replies to this topic

[Hikyuu]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

Nope, almost all of my multiplayer experience with mechwarrior is from MWO.

Damn shame, they would have loved you, my mechs rarely venture away from stock (only my Raven, but it's actually WORSE in FP because i'm making it an eWar nightmare for when ECM/BAP is enabled) only by minor adjustments (like my afor mentioned Hunchback 4G). the most any mech will have over a stock variant is more ammunition or speed. and those are useless if you're dead. assault mechs can vary heavily in fire power, but not mediums/lights. and the Heavies in this game are really role specific. so they hardly venture far from their home.

[Urza Mechwalker]

Haeso, on 31 October 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

The trial dragon doesn't have enough heatsinks to use any of it's three weapon types constantly. It's horrible. Are you trying to suggest because you can kill people with it, it's not horrible? I could kill people with a jenner and one MG, would that make it good?

You realize that a custom mech that can fire tis weaposn constantly is a HORRIBLE mech? Because hta means he spent like 30 tons in heat sinks ( exception taken on the gauss). Well made custom mech also cannto fire for logn time. Because you do nto NEED to. You HIDE, expose to fire fire and retreat. If you plan to keep advancign and firing you are not going do be on on anything but a direwolf.

[Haeso]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

That's not what fire support means at all. Also, like I said, firing the LRMs or AC5 constantly is terrible. You don't want that to ever happen on a custom mech too.

For example, my Jenner is less heat efficient than the stock Jenner, and yet it is capable of doing more damage because I'm not actually just standing there firing all my weapons constantly nor am I even able to if I wanted to. I only have a few seconds to fire weapons before I have to run off or take cover. If I was more heat neutral then I'd be wasting heat sinks stuck at 0% heat for half the game.

Oh, and if you're going to argue, don't attempt to state something is a fact when it isn't a consensus whatsoever, debate properly.

A jenner is not a brawler, it's a light 'Mech. Fire support and brawlers /should/ be firing as much as possible. I never hit zero heat outside the start of a match in them unless I've lost weapons and can't build heat anymore. Where a light 'Mech dodges, a brawler keeps fighting and torso twisting between shots to spread damage. Totally different experience.

Hikyuu, on 31 October 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

however it is still a viable mech if used properly, what you're missing is that they whine that they can't kill anything in their mechs to the super vastly superior custom mech, and we've just literally proven that false, the red herring here sir is that your 'opinion' is not what i'm arguing. but fact.

I don't see anyone suggesting it can't kill anyone but your strawman. I certainly never took up the 'cannot kill anything'

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not once did i shut down, not once did Kriv shut down, are you saying using terrain to your advantage is bad? man you must take a lot of LRMs to the head. yes, fire support can't just stand there and shoot all the time constantly. (this would be because you'd eventually get singled out.) the mech is usable, and can achieve kills, you just need to not suck.

A good pilots damage is limited by heatsinks, if you are not building heat, you've got too few weapons or too many heat sinks. Or you're just not firing enough. Any 'Mech can kill people, not all 'Mechs are equal.

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your opinion is that it would be better with 'X' or if 'X' was taken away. that's fine, thats what experience teaches you, that's the mech you would run if you could buy one and afford it, there in lies my point, you actually have to learn this **** before you can even properly build a mech to your playstyle, and thus the trials are not ineffective, the pilots are, and the only way to reduce that is to learn and be better.

It's not about playstyle, do you wish to argue that the dragon would not be infinitely superior if you just gave it DHS? No other changes. 2 med laser, 10 lrm, 5 ac. Same ammo. Just DHS. Would it not be superior in literally every way?

The 'mech is poorly designed. It worked better in TT because heat worked differently, though tbh it was still pretty bad in TT - but I digress.

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i used to run stock matches back in the MW4 and MW3 days, everyone always winced and moaned that 'OMG STOCK MECHS SUCK', but Clan TW and Gimp could faceroll chaps in their popup sniper builds in MW4 using stock Madcats. these complaints to me are moot because unlike most, i learn the mech, i learn how it feels and operates, i can fight in anything on that list of trials and win/kill/make money, and i'm not even that good of a player, just a concious one that can breath by nature and not drag my knuckles when i walk. just sayin.

Some stock 'Mechs are really good, I've played those games and TT as well, there were a handful of stock 'Mechs that boated Med Lasers. Another good popup stock was the uziel and many of it's variants.

'learn how it feels'? You mean learn how it's inadequate? Again, I've never suggested it cannot do /anything/ just that everything else does it better right now. The stock raven's in much the same boat in my opinion, it's too slow to dodge fire/circlestrafe good players imho.

Urza Mechwalker, on 31 October 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

You realize that a custom mech that can fire tis weaposn constantly is a HORRIBLE mech? Because hta means he spent like 30 tons in heat sinks ( exception taken on the gauss). Well made custom mech also cannto fire for logn time. Because you do nto NEED to. You HIDE, expose to fire fire and retreat. If you plan to keep advancign and firing you are not going do be on on anything but a direwolf.

A direwolf is a pretty terrible brawler outside cities. It's too slow, also had the obnoxiously large CT.

True heat neutral is overkill, yes, but the speed at which the dragon overheats is incredibly sub-optimal. Again, can anyone tell me in what way the trial dragon would be worse if it had DHS instead? Double heat dissipation, same weight, 25% heat threshold, same cost since trial's are free, what is worse? The 'Mech simply isn't optimal by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited by Haeso, 31 October 2012 - 02:16 AM.

[RH7N0]

I wonder if the current generation of video games are partly to blame for this, since most (that I have played) offer quick gratification in terms of kills. Since in MWO you cant just OMG IMA FIRIN' MA (insert weapon name here) the hole time and expect to get kills without taking other factors into consideration. I wonder if things would go better if they actually try to determine the best way to fight with the mech instead of rushing everywhere. Just my two cents

[Krivvan]

Haeso, on 31 October 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

A jenner is not a brawler, it's a light 'Mech. Fire support and brawlers /should/ be firing as much as possible. I never hit zero heat outside the start of a match in them unless I've lost weapons and can't build heat anymore. Where a light 'Mech dodges, a brawler keeps fighting and torso twisting between shots to spread damage. Totally different experience.

A Jenner in this game is a Brawler. It can also be tooled as a Striker.

And the point of the video was to show that I do in fact fire as much as possible like a brawler. The thing is, I still don't need more heat sinks. If I sacrificed my weapons for more heat sinks then I may be able to achieve a higher DPS but at the cost of less burst damage and it is that burst damage which I use when there is a good target to use it on.

To be honest, when I'm in my Jenner, the trial mech I'm most afraid of is the Dragon.

Edited by Krivvan, 31 October 2012 - 02:15 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

The problem with heat is not that there is heat and mechs can overheat.

The problem is that some weapons simply produce too much heat to be worthwile, and this affects particularly trial mechs, which were build around a game system where the heat these weapons produced was reasonable compared to the heat dissipation the mechs had. This game system is called "Battletech". In that game, heat sinks negated 1 heat per 10 second turn, and most weapons could deal their damage and heat exactly once in 10 seconds.

But now, weapons can deal damage and heat multiple times in 10 seconds. Which changes balance assumptions. In that battletech game, the cost of increasing your damage output with a weapon without negatively affecting your endurance in terms of heat, was equal to the weight of that weapon and all the extra heat sinks and extra ammo. But if you were to allow a weapon to also fire twice, the cost for doubling the damage output changes to heat sinks + extra ammo - the weapon weight does not need to be paid until you have maxed out the rate of fire.


See my signature for a detailed (and I mean wall of texts and graphical charts) detailed analysis of the problem.


And now back to your regular scheduled topic: "Smart Play in Trials"

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 31 October 2012 - 02:16 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Haeso, Dragon feels like you have enough firepower to kill the enemy and have enough survivability and speed to do it. It is an assasin, not a brawler, you don't need to stand face to face with the enemy for 30 seconds and fire all your weapons. That is not the role of Dragon and if anyone uses it like this the person should fail and suffer.

[Krivvan]

MustrumRidcully, on 31 October 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

The problem with heat is not that there is heat and mechs can overheat.

The problem is that some weapons simply produce too much heat to be worthwile

You mean like this weapon?



Seems effective to me. And on my first ever game with it. And against a premade team.

[Hikyuu]

Haeso, on 31 October 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

I speak lots of nonsense and pretend i'm smart by mentioning all the logical fallacies i learned in junior college..

getting back to topic. this isn't a strawman, players are whining that they can't achieve money/wins/kills in Trial Mechs, i just proved i can. that's pretty much the cut and dry, you're trying to argue (i guess) that they need to make non canon variants to make pugs have to try less to play. and i find that to be a horrible way to make this game boring as HELL. maybe it's all the Call of Duty, instant gratification whiners out there, but i LIKE a challenge.

furthermore. maybe i don't need DHS to make the DRN 1N effective for how i use it, honestly i wouldnt change a thing about the 1N, but i A. use it as it's intended role B. watch my heat. and C. pilot like i have a ******* brain. so maybe thats just me.

i think you've got a lot of really bad ideas. putting DHS's in mechs just so it makes them less difficult to play sounds pretty wonky, and borderline on just handing them free money/XP/Mechs everytime they look at the enemy. maybe we can even give them a heat booster when they like MWO on Facebook! it's these ideas that allow kids to play Call of Duty for 40hrs straight and achieve nothing significant.

I just pray that the devs listen to both of us, and realize you sound ******* crazy. the Trial Mechs are fine, and are proven effective. end of discussion.

[Az0r]

I'm sorry but I have to post this. This is the K2 that you "danced" with. Unlike the damage you thought you did, you barely even hurt the K2 with your initial volley and you got him to orange external armor, not even close to stripping him. http://www.twitch.tv...ell/b/337520832 Skip to 5:29:30 to see the whole "fight" So you barely managed to get a K2 to orange externals while he was trying solely to headshot you. Sorry man trial mechs really aren't that good.

*edit* this came across kinda harshly, I didn't intend for this to be an attack on your piloting just showing that trial mechs aren't that good and that stories can become exagerated to promote ones opinions.

Edited by Az0r, 31 October 2012 - 02:39 AM.

[Krivvan]

Az0r, on 31 October 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I have to post this. This is the K2 that you "danced" with. Unlike the damage you thought you did, you barely even hurt the K2 with your initial volley and you got him to orange external armor, not even close to stripping him. http://www.twitch.tv...ell/b/337520832

He did strip him though...look closer at the damage indicator (terrible place to put it by the way).

And again, posting a single video doesn't mean trial mechs are all terrible. I've posted one of mine, I could post all of mine with games of trial mechs doing very well.

Edited by Krivvan, 31 October 2012 - 02:46 AM.

[mike29tw]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

He did strip him though...look closer at the damage indicator (terrible place to put it by the way).

And again, posting a single video doesn't mean trial mechs are all terrible. I've posted one of mine, I could post all of mine with games of trial mechs doing very well.

Same logic. Getting a few kills in trial mechs doesn't mean they aren't bad.

[Krivvan]

mike29tw, on 31 October 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

Same logic. Getting a few kills in trial mechs doesn't mean they aren't bad.

I know it's the same logic, hence why I said it was the same logic. A trial mech getting beaten by a Gaussapult isn't proof that they're bad. And I refrained from just posting a few kills, I posted full games and having better performance than owned mechs. Does that mean trial mechs are better? No, it just means they can be viable which is all I'm trying to say.

Basically, a team with more trial mechs isn't going to always lose against a team with fewer trial mechs. To say that means putting blame on anything that doesn't have to do with the actual performance of your team.

And another video, even though it's old:



Almost entire team composed of trial mechs.

Edited by Krivvan, 31 October 2012 - 02:53 AM.

[Hikyuu]

Az0r, on 31 October 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I have to post this. This is the K2 that you "danced" with. Unlike the damage you thought you did, you barely even hurt the K2 with your initial volley and you got him to orange external armor, not even close to stripping him. http://www.twitch.tv...ell/b/337520832 Skip to 5:29:30 to see the whole "fight" So you barely managed to get a K2 to orange externals while he was trying solely to headshot you. Sorry man trial mechs really aren't that good.

*edit* this came across kinda harshly, I didn't intend for this to be an attack on your piloting just showing that trial mechs aren't that good and that stories can become exagerated to promote ones opinions.

sorry man, but i did say i stripped you, so it wasn't an exaggeration, fluffing the story about your reactions may have been, but considering you didnt just one off me (as with most gaussapult encounters) i'd say the fight was pretty swimmingly even for someone working with a stock mech. Had i had support (had they not gotten pulverized) it would have easily been in my favor.

adittionally, there's tons of evidence of me fighting other mechs and winning, the Gaussapult being a cheese build does not prove the stock mechs are bad. the fact that i could take you on on my own kind of shows any mech can shine in the hands of a good pilot.

[Hikyuu]

mike29tw, on 31 October 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

Same logic. Getting a few kills in trial mechs doesn't mean they aren't bad.

uh, yeah it does. what do you expect them to do? kill the whole team? lol!.

'oh man this dragon is so bad, i should have 12 kills by now!'

the fact that you can get 1 kill helps the team as long as your gimp *** doesnt die. 2 kills and you're a ******* force multiplier.

> most games end with everybody getting 1-2 kills
>rarely do ace pilots rack up 3-4 kills

doing a couple of kills in a stock mech, helping your team, and making some Cbills, is exactly what these people say they can't do, and again, we JUST proved them wrong. Case Closed.

[MustrumRidcully]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

You mean like this weapon?



Seems effective to me. And on my first ever game with it. And against a premade team.

Yes, exactly, like that weapon.
I will not respond to anecdotes, except maybe to complinent your skill.

The reason the Gauss Cat is popular is not because the PPC is a decent alternative to the Gauss Rifle.

[Az0r]

Hikyuu, on 31 October 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

sorry man, but i did say i stripped you, so it wasn't an exaggeration, fluffing the story about your reactions may have been, but considering you didnt just one off me (as with most gaussapult encounters) i'd say the fight was pretty swimmingly even for someone working with a stock mech. Had i had support (had they not gotten pulverized) it would have easily been in my favor.

adittionally, there's tons of evidence of me fighting other mechs and winning, the Gaussapult being a cheese build does not prove the stock mechs are bad. the fact that i could take you on on my own kind of shows any mech can shine in the hands of a good pilot.

It's not me in the video, I'm that crazy sounding australian complaining about mongoloids.

You said you stripped his CT. When the fight began he was already on yellow CT yet ended the fight on Orange. That means you did at most 50% damage to his CT.

You also state that if you had support you would have killed him. Well maybe, maybe not but your OP is designed to show how trial mechs are fine when in reality they can barely scratch an enemy who is toying with you. I can assure you, if he wasn't aiming solely for your head you would have lasted about 4-5 volleys AT MOST.

If a mech requires support to beat a mech of similar class then it is most often a terrible mech (like the dragon)

[Hikyuu]

Az0r, on 31 October 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

It's not me in the video, I'm that crazy sounding australian complaining about mongoloids.

You said you stripped his CT. When the fight began he was already on yellow CT yet ended the fight on Orange. That means you did at most 50% damage to his CT.

You also state that if you had support you would have killed him. Well maybe, maybe not but your OP is designed to show how trial mechs are fine when in reality they can barely scratch an enemy who is toying with you. I can assure you, if he wasn't aiming solely for your head you would have lasted about 4-5 volleys AT MOST.

If a mech requires support to beat a mech of similar class then it is most often a terrible mech (like the dragon)

'yellow' is whenever that armor takes slight damage, and i stripped the armor from his CT, thats exactly what the video shows me doing. 'stripping' reffers to the armor being gone from a mech, and thats indicated by the outline line bieng gone around his CT. that goey inside is 'internal structure' and has it's own preset armor value. he was close to death.

and same goes for your pilot, clearly making a poor choice to try and headshot me. however he did not shoot or hit my CT, so clearly something was working in my favor.

also i think any mech needs the support of friends, otherwise it's just a slug fest and relies mostly on luck. as shown in the fight between me and him.

considering this, it's clear that you're just missing the point, the point is he was nice and primed for a takedown shot, had i had a few more good hits he'd be the one on the floor, poor decisions on my part, but nonetheless, the stock mech was usable and effective. son.

Edited by Hikyuu, 31 October 2012 - 03:03 AM.

[Krivvan]

Az0r, on 31 October 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

It's not me in the video, I'm that crazy sounding australian complaining about mongoloids.

You said you stripped his CT. When the fight began he was already on yellow CT yet ended the fight on Orange. That means you did at most 50% damage to his CT.

The fight ended with his CT stripped to internals. Look again.

Az0r, on 31 October 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

If a mech requires support to beat a mech of similar class then it is most often a terrible mech (like the dragon)

Are all missile boats terrible when a heavy/assault mech gets up in its face?

Edited by Krivvan, 31 October 2012 - 03:03 AM.

[Selfish]

I've actually had a lot of fun with the dragon, which was unexpected given my initial impressions of it. I made a video for it before the patch. It's faster than mediums sans the Cicada, and generally fields less damage (but with more varied weapons) than a HBK. It's very good at knocking people over, and due to its weight class can perform scouting/striking roles in very heavy matches. I'm a big fan of the 1C, but find the 1N isn't my speed while the 5N is completely silly. I dislike all of the Dragon stock variants. They're lacking speed, and their weapons are often ineffectual or split between several ranges.

My last experimental 1C build before OB had enough punch and speed to satisfy me. 325 XL, AMS, UAC5 (2 ton), 4x MLas, SRM 4 (1 ton), ES, and 10 SHS (5? DHS). Gave you a solid alpha of 35, or 40 if you wanted to double tap. It was a decent punch with a lot of speed.