68 replies to this topic

[Hikyuu]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

The fight ended with his CT stripped to internals. Look again.

he's looking at the rear armor value, LOL.

the CT is cored in the video.

also he even admitted the difficulty of landing the headshot, and he 'was really trying!' too. so clearly my piloting didn't make that easy.

he's right that he should have moved out of range, and if i had a team that didnt rush into death against a premade. he'd have not likely survived.

[Az0r]

My mistake. How ever my point remains. You were fighting an enemy who was fatigued and purposely toying with you. Watch a little after he kills you, he states that you didn't seem to realise he was toying with you.

As for missle boats, they aren't useless vs equivelant tonned mechs. They are useless at a certain range vs any mech and equally deadly at any range vs any mech. They are an exception to the rule.

Like I said in my edit in my first post: this isn't an attack on you as a pilot and you did a very good job avoiding his shots, but if a trial mech cant even beat a mech of similar weight when the pilot is having a fit of the sillies then what good is it?

Also we weren't a premade. It was just me and him, or maybe 3 of us total I can't remember exactly we'd been playing for over 10hrs at the time.

Edited by Az0r, 31 October 2012 - 03:23 AM.

[tenderloving]

EDMW CSN, on 31 October 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

But but but but you haz Founder Tag and Founderz CBT experience ! IT'S UNFAIR OMG!!!!!

You're trying to be cute, but in all honesty comparing OP's experience to someone who is brand new to the game is laughable.

[Krivvan]

Az0r, on 31 October 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

but if a trial mech cant even beat a mech of similar weight when the pilot is having a fit of the sillies then what good is it?

And yet there are other examples of trial mechs beating other mechs of similar weights. So it's not as if one example is proof that it's bad. And frankly one example of mine isn't proof that they're good. All I was trying to say is that they can be used.

[Haeso]

Hikyuu, on 31 October 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

getting back to topic. this isn't a strawman, players are whining that they can't achieve money/wins/kills in Trial Mechs, i just proved i can. that's pretty much the cut and dry, you're trying to argue (i guess) that they need to make non canon variants to make pugs have to try less to play. and i find that to be a horrible way to make this game boring as HELL. maybe it's all the Call of Duty, instant gratification whiners out there, but i LIKE a challenge.

They're "whining" because they're denied access to the mechlab, one of the greatest parts of the Mechwarrior series for hours on end, they're "whining" because they're forced to use an incredibly sub-optimal 'Mech for the duration of this mind numbing grind. I'm arguing that new players shouldn't be target practice for us veterans - this game is going to BLEED players if the initial grind stays as is and the only way out is the paywall. The new player experience is simply terrible - I've already got my purchased atlas, I'm past the grind, it no longer affects me... Except for all the new players that will quit before ever owning their first 'Mech. The first couple games is all the time PGI has to grab the average player, the majority will not be sticking around if they're forced to suffer for their first several hours of gameplay. I don't care if the grind takes a long time - but let them customize the trial 'Mechs at the very bloody least, it's simply not fun being locked out of the 'Mech lab for your first hours of gameplay.

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furthermore. maybe i don't need DHS to make the DRN 1N effective for how i use it, honestly i wouldnt change a thing about the 1N, but i A. use it as it's intended role B. watch my heat. and C. pilot like i have a ******* brain. so maybe thats just me.

You can't even answer a simple question... Why do I bother? The point is it's strictly superior with DHS, there is no downside because it does not use any additional heatsinks outside of it's engine, the dragon is the PERFECT candidate as is for stock DHS.

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i think you've got a lot of really bad ideas. putting DHS's in mechs just so it makes them less difficult to play sounds pretty wonky, and borderline on just handing them free money/XP/Mechs everytime they look at the enemy. maybe we can even give them a heat booster when they like MWO on Facebook! it's these ideas that allow kids to play Call of Duty for 40hrs straight and achieve nothing significant.

It's not about 'less difficult' it's about putting them on an even playing field as people that aren't still running trial 'Mechs. The fact of the matter is that they're straight up inferior. It's about letting them access the 'Mech lab before putting 4-5 hours into the game at minimum. It's about making the game better and more appealing to players. It's NOT about punishing people for not paying. It's NOT about how gigantic your e-peen is and how you can kill people in a sub-optimal 'Mech, I can too - I did it for over 100 games to get my atlas. That doesn't mean the playing field is even.

At the very least trial 'Mechs should only fight other trial 'Mechs. Or allow them access to the 'Mech lab on said trial 'Mechs.

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I just pray that the devs listen to both of us, and realize you sound ******* crazy. the Trial Mechs are fine, and are proven effective. end of discussion.

They're not fine, and all you've proven is that anything with weapons can kill people. They're demonstrably weaker in every aspect to an optimized 'Mech. But I'm glad your idea of a coherent argument is attacking me, keeping it classy.

[I Just Ate Your Grapes Bro]

Hikyuu, on 31 October 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

I just pray that the devs listen to both of us, and realize you sound ******* crazy. the Trial Mechs are fine, and are proven effective to people that have played the franchise for years and are extremely familiar with the game mechanics. end of discussion.

fixed. Also, if you've got a 2.0 KDR and you pug, you aren't a 'decent' pilot, you're a VERY good pilot... Just because a GOOD pilot that knows his mechwarrior IS effective in a stock mech, doesn't mean that someone brand new to the franchise will be. I personally don't feel the mechs need any tweaking at all, as they stand they are very trail by fire about learning the heat system, and when you build your own you can decide between you twos point of views on how you want your mech. But your point of argument is just off base here.... if you can't see that, you aren't offering much to help the game attract NEW faces, which is what will ultimately keep it alive...

Also, I run a cicada that carries 4 med lasers and enough heat sinks that I could fire them the ENTIRE match should I want to and never overheat... I consistantly get 500-900 damage and anywhere from 0-6 kills (I care FAR less about the killshot and more about assisting my team where it's needed) unless we get pugstomped, so your logic on having a mech overloaded on heatsinks isn't completely right either, your opinoions are just as much opinions as Haesos, saying them more doesn't make them more fact.

Edited by Ehrithane, 31 October 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[Haeso]

Ehrithane, on 31 October 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

fixed. Also, if you've got a 2.0 KDR and you pug, you aren't a 'decent' pilot, you're a VERY good pilot... Just because a GOOD pilot that knows his mechwarrior IS effective in a stock mech, doesn't mean that someone brand new to the franchise will be. I personally don't feel the mechs need any tweaking at all, but your point of argument is just off base here.... if you can't see that, you aren't offering much to help the game attract NEW faces, which is what will ultimately keep it alive...

It's not even about him being good in it, so much as it's about he'd be better if he optimized it. The DHS vs SHS on a dragon N1 chassis is the perfect example of a customization that is literally better in every way. No downside.

It is both not fun to be denied access to the 'Mech lab and to be forced to fight people that do have access to it.

Edited by Haeso, 31 October 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[Az0r]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

And yet there are other examples of trial mechs beating other mechs of similar weights. So it's not as if one example is proof that it's bad. And frankly one example of mine isn't proof that they're good. All I was trying to say is that they can be used.

The only half decent trial mechs are the LRM boats. (hunch and awesome) But thats because of LRMs not because of trials. Trial lights should have a warning on them that reads masochists only.

[Lane]

Put the new to mechwarrior player in a fully customised mech, and the veteran player in a trial mech, who wins?

And my point is, it doesn't matter what mech the new player takes, they need to learn how to play to be effective. They will have their first fully customised mech long before they become good at this game.

I am still below average, and always will be.

Lane

Edited by Lane, 31 October 2012 - 03:45 AM.

[The Wee Baby Seamus]

Hikyuu, on 31 October 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

(as a reminder, I'm typically in a 4G hunchback with 3 medlas and an AC20, i regularly make 1-2 kills a game and rarely exceed 4, my KD struggles around 2/1. so i'd be what you'd call an 'Average' pilot.)

By applying basic math, one would find that the "average" player will not be able to boast a 2/1 kill:death ratio, because (by applying the average, cutting out the very best and also the very worst who would even each other out) an "average" match would have to end with 32 destroyed mechs.

Calling 2:1 average is the distorted view of an above average gamer that has exagerated expectations towards the gaming community as a whole.

If you'd skim the profile data of people you'd probably end up with something like 0.6 - 0.7 k/d ratio being the average. Many, many people die a whole lot more than they kill.

[EDMW CSN]

tenderloving, on 31 October 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

You're trying to be cute, but in all honesty comparing OP's experience to someone who is brand new to the game is laughable.

So we can concede that trials mechs are not the problem but it's the hands behind the controls right ?
That's the whole point of the threadstarter trying to carry across, trial mechs or at least the trial Drag does not suck, that badly at least.

The fault is not the mechs, it's in the match maker. Hence PGI knows this and that is why PGI are trying to fix the match making system.


But realistically it won't make a difference. This is an F2P game, I have made Alt accounts just to slaughter new players in F2P FPS games for lulz. Thinking back then it was extremely juvenile. But seriously it will not stop if a vet or 2 decides to make an alt just for the heck of it.

System match make him against genuine new players, watch him slaughter 2 to 3 of them.

Edited by EDMW CSN, 31 October 2012 - 03:54 AM.

[Haeso]

Lane, on 31 October 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

Put the new to mechwarrior player in a fully customised mech, and the veteran player in a trial mech, who wins?

And my point is, it doesn't matter what mech the new player takes, they need to learn how to play to be effective. They will have their first fully customised mech long before they become good at this game.

I am still below average, and always will be.

Lane

They'll quit long before they become good at the game.

[MustrumRidcully]

EDMW CSN, on 31 October 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

So we can concede that trials mechs are not the problem but it's the hands behind the controls right ?
That's the whole point of the threadstarter trying to carry across, trial mechs or at least the trial Drag does not suck, that badly at least.

Of course pilot skill matters. But in a discussion on the balance of a mech, we do not consider pilot skill. That would be stupid, then we could always say "Oh, yeah, this mech, with its loadout, it can core another mech every 5 seconds, but he's likely to be piloted by an incompetent buffoon so this mech is just as strong as that other mech that can overheat in 12 seconds before it even deals half the damage necessary to destroy an Atlas, because the latter is actually played by a smart and experienced person."

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 31 October 2012 - 04:17 AM.

[Aym]

AceTimberwolf, on 31 October 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

I main a 1N and the Trial 1N isn't that bad. If i had to choose a trial mech it would be that one


My Main Dragon

Wait wait wait, they took at knockdown entirely and you're STILL in your Dragon? Man we gotta play together!

[WarPickle]

I don't mind the Trial Mechs and can do quite well in one... just use some heat management and it can work out just fine

[Soulscour]

I agree that a mech is only as good as its pilot. Still the trial mechs are in a pretty big disadvantage when you put skill aside. Also take into account that it is only two days into the reset and a lot of players haven't gotten a mech or pimped it out fully. Speaking of which, have you considered switching out that AC20 for a Gauss on your HBK? I think you'll be getting way more shots in if you do. Mine has the armor and structure upgrades, 1 gauss (2tons ammo), 2 med pulse 1 med.

[Imagine Dragons]

I can kill people with an M1 Garand, thus it is not terrible compared with the M14.

And nobody should find it unfair/unbalanced that green shooters with M1s get stomped by crack shots with M14s...

[John Norad]

I think it's of little use to mix up pilot skills and mech designs. Both aspects should always be handled separately.

Yes, a good pilot can make every mech work. But many, if not most, new players aren't good. And they don't do well in trial mechs.
Obviously, one part of the 'problem' is that they are not good pilots (yet). But it's also because trial mechs are less efficient than customized mechs. Or let's say, less user friendly.
It's neither solely about skill, nor solely about the trial mechs. It's very likely both.

So why don't you leave your place on one side of the fence and join the others for a chill beer at a round table?
Quarrelling just for the sake of being right helps noone, especially not the newbies.

Denying the fact that modified mechs are more effective than stock mechs is kind of ridiculous, isn't it?
The fact alone that MW:O runs with modified game mechanics, especially with regard to heat buildup, must result in many TT loadouts being suboptimal. You can make them work, yes. But if you customize/optimize for MW:O gameplay and game mechanics, it will be better.

I tend to agree that todays gamers seem to dislike challenges.
But it doesn't help if you try to impose your point of view on them. You can't just make them like a rough ride instead of instant gratification.
F2P titles need a bit of instant gratification, a bit of something to make new people stick around. Starting the game should be fun, not arduous.
After all, the game, and PGI, needs new players, and cash.
Easy to learn, hard to master. It's a proven formula to make good games. Right now, MW:O isn't easy to learn, imho.

[Sayyid]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Keep track of my heat throughout this game. I do not run anything close to a heat neutral build, there are only 10-11 heat sinks in that mech, the engine heat sinks only basically.

Two things from that video.

1- Great use of heat management with 4 small lasers and 2 streaks
2- Great use of the lag shield.

[Krivvan]

Sayyid, on 31 October 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Two things from that video.

1- Great use of heat management with 4 small lasers and 2 streaks
2- Great use of the lag shield.

If it makes you that unhappy then just look at the video with the Trial dragon. I only posted that video to show that you can do just fine hovering at high heat.

And that heat is very high when you consider that I only have the single engine heat sinks.

Edited by Krivvan, 31 October 2012 - 05:55 AM.