63 replies to this topic

[Taryys]

Great post!

[Tasorin]

Nightcrept, on 31 October 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

I am a pug exclusively for now. I play approx 5-10 hrs a day.

Over the last few days I had gotten very frustrated with the game myself and thought about quitting. This was due to the amount of frustrating loses I was experiencing. But i had such a wonderful experience with the original PC versions of the game and in closed beta that I decided to calm down and figure out what was happening.

This is what I discovered.

Pre-mades:

The amount of pre-mades I actually ran into was at the most 1 out of 3 games. They sometimes unfortunately seem to run in series. So you may get 2 or 3 pre-mades back to back and then none for awhile.

So while being on the caustic board and topping over the crater to see eight mechs evenly spaced on the g3 ridge all with LRMS in the air about to hit you is frustrating. It doesn't happen often enough to explain the amount of frustrating extremely uneven loses I was seeing.But after being steam rolled by the few pre-mades I did find I was sensitive to it.

New Players vs Beta Vets:

Experience. Period. These I call vet-mades. The old beta vets have already played around with most if not all of the set-ups to know what works for them and their individual play style and have the experience to be deadly. Newer players have neither.

This creates what I call vet-made teams. This is when a team randomly has a larger amount of vet players (with their experience and established builds). The result is the appearance of a pre-made in deadly efficiency vs the team with more inexperienced players and their unbalanced builds.

Suicide Artists, Afk's, Disconnects.

Unfortunately, all of these seem to have increased since the start of open beta. And in many games I was discovering that we had multiples of these. The result is generally a steam roll of your team. I do not know how to stop any of these for the simple reason that they all happen naturally as well as maliciously. Suiciders can also be new players not knowing any better, Afk's can be due to kids setting the house on fire etc etc, DC's are caused by bugs (I bug out a few times a hr). But they all add to the perception of pre-mades ran wild and frustration.

So in conclusion these are the factors leading to the appearance of pre-mades gone wild:

1. The few Pre-made pug-stomps make you sensitive to them compounding the other issues.

2. Vet-mades happen due to the random nature and learning curve of the game.

3. Suicide Artists.

4. Afkers.

5. Disconnects.

So all of these issues taken together give the appearance of Pre-mades everywhere. But in reality it is many problems leading to frustrating lopsided losses. But this is open BETA. Emphasis on the BETA. If they aren't fixed then cry. Till then bite a pillow, kick the cat, beat on your cross-eyed neighbor or something....lol.

You better be careful, making sense will enrage the QQ base with your common sense and thought out informed perspective. Nice post, and you are spot on with Vet-Mades. Some of us have been playing Mechwarrior since before some of these X-box kiddies were born and then got the jump on them in MWO by playing the game at a high rate of hours per night over the last 5 to 6 months.

Fact of the matter, it knocked all the rust off the old timers that have come back to the Franchise and a fair percentage of us grouped up in Merc Units right out of the gate.

Viva la Grey Bush!

Edited by Tasorin, 31 October 2012 - 07:01 AM.

[Stoindrae]

I ran many rounds yesterday .. some in TS3 8-man group. Doing this, you'll win 19 out of 20 rounds.. if not better.

... and then a run for several hours with just one other person grouped in our Vent dropping pug after pug after pug...

In 20+ maps, we saw 2-4 organized teams that may have been [8 using VIOP]* -- and yes.. they hurt.

The rest were just pug v pug ... lots of "Leroy Jenkins" suicides ... inactive mechs (be it afk or crash) .. and some mid round disconnects (including us a few times)

We.. meaning my bud and I ... fall into that "Veteran" category. And we ran in AWS-9Ms as a tandem... and we owned the map 90% of the time...doing 500-800 damage each.. on average.. with 4-7 kills between the two of us. The rest of the players on team we were on were rarely scoring more than 100 dmg in the round.

So yeah ... there is a HUGE difference to solo players that are less familiar with the game mechanics, maps and piloting skills... in trial mechs, without any instant voice communication to coordinate targeting. ..... For now.

I agree that the 4-man lance limitation that is coming soon will help .. some, and I was really looking forward to seeing how it changed the rounds. But it still wont fix the "veteran vs new player" disparity.

All I can say is... it's still a work in progress.. and new player experience should get better as they work in the client and tutorials...

*(I dislike using the generic term pre-made, because there are practiced "merc/clan" groups that pre-build a mech loadout, and coordinate what mechs they drop etc... and then there are just random pugs in a TS3 channel that bring whatever they can/want and just use teamwork... not as much "pre-made" as just .. teamed)

[cryonic]

Uk evening time player - in 80 matches ive seen only three groups that declared themselves in chat as a premade - and no badmouthing. Either most are comms silent or this isnt as prevalent as people are complaining about.

The vets/founders thing is fairly obvious - and seems far more prevalent as theres so many founders Atlai/catapults around that its self evident who is experienced and who isnt.

Am I an outlier as a Closed Beta player who isnt a founder? Ive tried all the trial mechs and I can get (occasional) kills in them - but its hard work. I feel extremely sorry towards new players who have to face a heartless grind towards a mech in the face of such daunting opposition.

[Orzorn]

I think you hit the nail of the head with "Vet-mades". I've played on several teams like that, where we just all happened to be experienced enough. You can tell by their builds, how they move, and where they go.

In all honesty, I think I've ran into only 2-3 premades since open beta started.

Edited by Orzorn, 31 October 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[Mastodonic]

Tonight before grouping up i played in a couple pugs solo. Instead of just being silent and doing what i wanted, right at the start i suggested a couple basic strats you would do in a premade. Caustic i just simply said "maybe just head to E4 and wait there" and sure enough everyone just went there and waited. As the enemy approached again i just offered some advice "resist the temptation to fall into the volcano as they head over" sure enough, no one went in. We destroyed the other team with just two basic concepts.
Next match was river city. Again at the start of the match a simply said "so lets just defend" as we had the high ground. A couple people responded "yep ok" and that was it, nothing else was said. Everyone hung around base and the other team was ruined 8-1, similar to caustic. With just a couple simple "suggestions" most people will follow a basic plan if someone takes the initiative to lead.

But it doesn't help that the trial mechs are absolutely horrendous. I havent seen a single raven used and 50-70% of pilots will be in a trial awesome with LRM15s and not enough ammo to support them.

Edited by Mastodonic, 31 October 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[Taryys]

I would consider trying to lead a pug group if we could copy and paste into the chat window and if alt-tabbing back in did not cause an group 1 to fire.

[AvatarofWhat]

Sarevos, on 31 October 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Trial mechs and experience is the reason for MOST of the stomping

Raven- 81 kph SLOW for a scout, heavily armed but this means nothing when you can fire those weapons all of twice before you evaporate under sustained fire from a custom moving 129kph

Centurion- .... you know its not particularly bad... just not good either... it doesnt really have the fire power to kill anything unless you spam o in some sort of "quick time event"-esque "press o to not die" fury nor the armor to standup toe to toe with any custom and its SLOW

Dragon- fine if you want a fast heavy that pokes mechs and does no damage the clipped gimped raven does more single target damage but the amount of armor and its relatively high speed makes it a pretty big annoyance with the screenshake-o-matic on its arm i guess this one is OK but a streak Catapult will put you down faster than you can blink

Awesome- is pretty much the best of these in terms of sustained fire power it is a fire support mech and seems to be well equipped for that role despite only having 2 tons of Lrm ammo if you play well and have good aim its quite effective the problem is an atlas can do its job better and FASTER despite being 20 tons heavier. crawling at a snails pace of 48kph while having no ams means if you so much as look out from behind cover the slow acceleration will prevent you from slowing down and reversing fast enough to re enter cover even if you began doing so the moment you saw the lrms launch at 800m forced to take the full barrage this wouldnt be a problem for the most part as its just "one of those things you cant change" except an awesome carries the same value as an atlas in matchmaking currently and the atlas will always win toe to toe having more direct fire weaponry than you and carrying more armor having a higher speed and able to carry larger launchers than you.

since OB i grinded my way to 5 mill before i decided that enough was enough and flat out paid real money for my cat, mind you in CB i grinded EVERYTHING out in trials and **** if i was going to do that again...

Agreed for the most part but I have a few things to add:

Raven: Also overheats too quickly. Many weapons but no way to sustain fire. Combined with its slow speed for a light its just bad.

Centurion: Also overheats quickly but that is somewhat mitigated by the fact that its weapons are spread across various ranges. Possibly good but requires constant maneuvering to face the enemy in a range where they cannot effectively bring most of their weapons to bear. Combined with the fact that it's pretty slow makes it very hard for a new player to use effectively.

Dragon: Worse then the centurion in every aspect but it's speed. Compare stats with centurion in the mechlab and youll see what im talking about. Also suffers from the mixed ranges problem.

Awesome: Your comments were exactly on spot. I would just like to add that they should have removed the useless small laser that I dont even group into weapons(because its the only short range weapon on a long-range support mech and just adds heat) to make some space for more lrm ammo. With the centurion I can fire its lrm 10 the entire match. With the awesome I have to make every single lrm shot count. I agree that the worst part though is that it is insanely slow.

[Steele Rein]

Stoindrae, on 31 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I ran many rounds yesterday .. some in TS3 8-man group. Doing this, you'll win 19 out of 20 rounds.. if not better.

... and then a run for several hours with just one other person grouped in our Vent dropping pug after pug after pug...

In 20+ maps, we saw 2-4 organized teams that may have been [8 using VIOP]* -- and yes.. they hurt.

The rest were just pug v pug ... lots of "Leroy Jenkins" suicides ... inactive mechs (be it afk or crash) .. and some mid round disconnects (including us a few times)

We.. meaning my bud and I ... fall into that "Veteran" category. And we ran in AWS-9Ms as a tandem... and we owned the map 90% of the time...doing 500-800 damage each.. on average.. with 4-7 kills between the two of us. The rest of the players on team we were on were rarely scoring more than 100 dmg in the round.

Hey! I knew that story was familiar and then checked your name. I ran into you last night with my friends (4 total of us plus 4 randoms) and I'll vouch that you and your buddy rolled my group hard. All it takes is a couple of pilots who know what they're doing and the whole match takes a different dynamic.

I felt like we were winning that match until the 2 Awesomes took the river and wasted my Atlas and my bud's trial Awesome in 15 seconds flat. Well done, sir.

[Krivvan]

Mastodonic, on 31 October 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

Tonight before grouping up i played in a couple pugs solo. Instead of just being silent and doing what i wanted, right at the start i suggested a couple basic strats you would do in a premade. Caustic i just simply said "maybe just head to E4 and wait there" and sure enough everyone just went there and waited. As the enemy approached again i just offered some advice "resist the temptation to fall into the volcano as they head over" sure enough, no one went in. We destroyed the other team with just two basic concepts.
Next match was river city. Again at the start of the match a simply said "so lets just defend" as we had the high ground. A couple people responded "yep ok" and that was it, nothing else was said. Everyone hung around base and the other team was ruined 8-1, similar to caustic. With just a couple simple "suggestions" most people will follow a basic plan if someone takes the initiative to lead.

E7, D5; F6, D5-D6; E5, F6; F7, G Line.

I think I've pretty much memorized all the grid locations I tell PUG teams to group up at on each map.

[IIIuminaughty]

You know its funny how pug players always run into premades 1 out of 3 matches or whatever.
But i play in premades a lot and yesterday, blood pearls, had a count of playing PUG teams 8 out of 10 matches (Had a party of 8) ((didn't count if we had less than 8)). How do I know I ask them if they pug or premades, aint no use in lying about it.

So how do all these PUG players run into more Premade teams than Premade teams run into other premade teams?
I just don't see it.

[Wildger]

Great post. I fully agree with you. Last night, I was put into a PUG team with only 3 vets and the rest all newbies. I and my 2 other vets killed off 1 heavy and 1 light right at the start. I thought that I was going to have an easy win but only to be slaughtered one after another by the other team. Believe me. They were good including those two that got killed. At the end, the score board showed that only 3 of us did any damage. The rest of the teammates caused no damage at all. Why? Some disconnected. Some afk. Some running around and not knowing what to do or how to shoot. For the last two night since Open Beta, I ended up in teams with new players most of the time. They only have one strategy. They move forward as a group close to each other and then got slaughtered.

Edited by Wildger, 31 October 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

stjobe, on 31 October 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

I've run across two - yes two - premades since open beta started: One was only identified as a premade by a "GG from DHB" (Death's Hand Brigade) after they roundly thrashed us (8-1, I got the only kill) - no smack talk, no boasting. The other one was 6 people from Clan Widowmaker (IIRC) that dropped with me and another PUG, and they were nothing but courteous to us and the other team, giving their recruitment info and answering questions; They started the match by asking if anyone was new to the game, and I got a "well played stjobe" as we chased away and killed the enemy scout at the start of the match.

Something that I've been thinking about though is if this (smack-talking and unhelpfulness) is more an American thing? I play only EU evenings (which would be middle of the day in the US), and I seldom see any smack-talk and/or asshattery. Perhaps the gaming culture is different between the US and the EU, or perhaps there's just more of the Americans so there's proportionally more of the ... less well-behaved players?

Perhaps I'm just lucky. Either way, the only confirmed pre-mades I've come across have been nothing but courteous and helpful.

Most of the times an 8-0 win is just a slightly coordinated PUG beating a non-coordinated PUG.

Actually Stjobe, You have been a guest PUG on our pre-made at least twice since OB started But it is hard to tell with us, we have several new people and many of our "old-timers" play at odd hours, so you can see us 2 games in a row with a 5 player turnover, lol.

You were fun to run with, if you ever want to hang out with us on TS3 just hit the link in my signature

See you on the battlefield.

[The Fencer]

I can say that my team of four (one of which is a new guy to the game completely) often is enough to tip the scale of a battle -- hell, only two of us working and communicating can tip the battle in our favor!

I do know that here is a divide between us CB vets, and the new guys. Unfortunately, unless you have a friend to tutor (and protect) you while you're learning, you're gonna have a bad time.

And, unfortunately, like Chess, there is no way to learn other than losing. A lot. This is a game where having friends and teams can make a huge difference in your learning curve, in-game finances, and fun.

Bring your friends. The game is free.

[Khan Warlock Kell]

Great post by the OP im one of the evil pre-made's. and i can honestly say pug stomping is not why i play the game. I'd much rather fight other pre-made groups.

If a pre-made group is rude to you in game. ignore them, They have already shown you thier true colours so just don't consider joining them. My unit has strict guidelines on showing respect to the Op-For, anyone who breaks those rules is dealt with.

Edited by Zakius, 31 October 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[stjobe]

Tickdoff Tank, on 31 October 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Actually Stjobe, You have been a guest PUG on our pre-made at least twice since OB started But it is hard to tell with us, we have several new people and many of our "old-timers" play at odd hours, so you can see us 2 games in a row with a 5 player turnover, lol.

You were fun to run with, if you ever want to hang out with us on TS3 just hit the link in my signature

See you on the battlefield.

Thank you, and I might take you up on that one of these evenings.

The Fencer, on 31 October 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

And, unfortunately, like Chess, there is no way to learn other than losing. A lot. This is a game where having friends and teams can make a huge difference in your learning curve, in-game finances, and fun.

Bring your friends. The game is free.

Essentially this. MWO is so very much not a single-player game; it's extremely uncompromising in that teamplay isn't an option, it's a necessity.

Whether it's a full-on Clan or Merc corp, a group of random people on the same TS3 server, or just a PUG that communicates, the team that communicates will absolutely roll the team that does not.

Luckily, you don't need much to achieve the level of communication that's needed to roll the other group; just a few lines in chat, someone that states a plan of action, and you've as good as won already - unless the other team does the same, of course

[Crieghton James]

I was expecting another troll post. I'm glad i continued to read on.

This is the best explanation of the current state of the game. A good post. I hope the Devs are reading (which they usually are).

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I run primarily pre-made groups, however last night we were 2 players short so dropped with a 6-man team for several hours.
Having just 2 PUG players on our team really highlighted the cancer that has taken hold of the community, and now I see why people are up in arms. The issue is not premade teams it is the PUGs, well specifically the ones that are griefers and exploiters (AFK, disconnects, suicide scout, TKers). With just two of these on our team we suddenly face a 8v6, which is a challenge for TS3 team, but for a team without voice comms, it is a death sentence.

And if we are able to pull 1 or 2 bad apples with such consistency I imagine that out of 8 random people there is a good chance that over half the team is working against itself.

I used to think that putting 4 PUGs in pre-mades was a good idea to introduce new players to team tactics, but now I see it as a fire way to incite and infuriate the foundation of MWO, the organized teams.

I cannot wait for the improved matchmaker, I suspect it will be a dramatic improvement when players are matched by "skill" (skill being win-lose, K/D ratio, etc), so that the roustabouts can sink to the bottom and languish together.

[GenDread]

Very well said .... as as someone who runs in premades.... we try and get people to join our FWLM server so there not stuck pugging when we post the server we have had people respond with "good for you as#%^@le" when our intention is to try and help so dont only blame the pre-mades for the bad attitudes.

we have found that if we post it before the match we get disconects from the opposing team right off the bat .... and if we wait till the match is almost over we get negitive feedback .... any idea's on how to approach this issue?

Edited by GenDread, 31 October 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Helmer]

Kudos Nightcrept !

Concise well thought out post that points out very valid reasons new players are simply not having as much fun as they could. I'll make sure to point some eyes this way.

Agreed on just about all counts.


As several individuals have pointed out , this week has been a bit rough. They are issues that have been known about and discussed in the closed beta forums. Hopefully we will see systems and fixes implemented soon.



Cheers, and awesome feedback.