25 replies to this topic

[Fuzzydragon]

So I've been in MWO now since the first round of closed beta invites went out and the Gauss Rifle has since day one been one of the most bitched about weapons on the forums but unlike the LRM's and AC/2's witch got plenty of balancing tweaks over the months Gauss has strangely been ignored left as easily the most over powered weapon in the game.

the problem lies in the GR's incorrect stats witch are missing the weapons 60m Min. range allowing the weapon to deal massive damage at all ranges for no heat penalty witch leaves the AC/20 with it's slightly bigger punch massive heat penalty and short range feeling more like a downgrade.

reinstating the GR's minimum range would make mounting a GR a far more serious gamble
as mechs that manage to penetrate that 60m will pose a far more serious threat should the GR Mech have failed to mount sufficient close range weaponry.

[CheeseThief]

Why would a ballistic weapon have a minimum range when the shot has the highest velocity just after it leaves the barrel?

The Gauss got given the 60m minimum range in TT to show that it was a slow and cumbersome weapon, so how about suggesting the slow and cumbersome part instead of the number that was there to emulate it?

Give the Gauss a delayed fire as the capacitors charge, drastically lower the aiming speed of the limb it's attached to, maybe even double or triple the damage so it's not a mild inconvenience with doubled armour and internals, all of which are massively more interesting and in character than a lousy 60m minimum range 'because the TT game said so'.

Edited by CheeseThief, 31 October 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Fuzzydragon]

CheeseThief, on 31 October 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Why would a ballistic weapon have a minimum range when the shot has the highest velocity just after it leaves the barrel?

The Gauss got given the 60m minimum range in TT to show that it was a slow and cumbersome weapon, so how about suggesting the slow and cumbersome part instead of the number that was there to emulate it?

Give the Gauss a delayed fire as the capacitors charge, drastically lower the aiming speed of the limb it's attached to, maybe even double or triple the damage so it's not a mild inconvenience with doubled armour and internals, all of which are massively more interesting and in character than a lousy 60m minimum range 'because the TT game said so'.

because like a modern tank Sabot round the shell is launched in a magnetic casing that separates as the shell is launched, this was referenced in a few of the books [Tactics of Duty].

so while yes it would still strike the round force would be dispersed by the larger surface area of the casing and at the very least soften the blow.

Edited by Fuzzydragon, 31 October 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[627]

A gauss round is a big round massive slug. Like a marble with the size of a basketball. it's a cannon! There is no sabot casing.

Indeed, in the novel when Kai gets his gauss on yen-lo-wang they told him he could fire anything magnetic and he could front load when there is no more internal ammo (Loading other things wasn't recommended though).

[sakkaku]

627, on 31 October 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

A gauss round is a big round massive slug. Like a marble with the size of a basketball. it's a cannon! There is no sabot casing.

Battletech has changed in the past to adopt more technologically and physically correct descriptions/lore. For instance jumpships used to use their solar sails to maintain orbit in a solar system via the solar wind (lol). Then they changed it to the jumpship keeping position with drives and the sail facing in system when they figured out the solar wind would be too weak at the zenith and nadir points.

Some other nerf suggestions:

- Cockpit rock when fired do to recoil
- Firing delay between multiple guass
- UAC5 mechanic when it can be fired before full recharge but at reduced damage and speed. Up the full recharge time.

[Derek Icelord]

As was discussed in various threads on the beta boards, the gauss rifle is more of a symptom than the root cause. The root cause is the heat scale.

PGI is starting from the Classic BattleTech tabletop values, and tweaking from there. Among these tweaks, we have seen weapon fire rates go from once every 10 seconds (a tabletop turn length) to roughly 3x as fast on average. However, the heat produced by the weapons and the rate at which heat dissipates has remained the same, with a few (relatively) minor tweaks to some energy weapons. Thus weapons that produce very low heat per shot (like the gauss rifle) have leaped far ahead of high heat weapons like the PPC in effectiveness.

[627]

if you want to balance or nerf the gauss, you could simply extend reloading time. You would still have your sniper punch, and you would not need to add a min range that won't change anything (a brawling g-kitty dies fast anyway).

[Allekai]

to all those against the min range for gauss.. the PPC has a min range... explain that

[627]

a PPC has a field Inhibitor? You can turn it off, but that will hurt your mech? It's a giant lightning gun, thats magic tech. A gauss is still plausible with current physics.

[RedHairDave]

CheeseThief, on 31 October 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Why would a ballistic weapon have a minimum range when the shot has the highest velocity just after it leaves the barrel?

The Gauss got given the 60m minimum range in TT to show that it was a slow and cumbersome weapon, so how about suggesting the slow and cumbersome part instead of the number that was there to emulate it?

Give the Gauss a delayed fire as the capacitors charge, drastically lower the aiming speed of the limb it's attached to, maybe even double or triple the damage so it's not a mild inconvenience with doubled armour and internals, all of which are massively more interesting and in character than a lousy 60m minimum range 'because the TT game said so'.

its called aerodynamic shaped penetrator. its what happens to modern day magnetically accelerated slugs. the slugs are shaped into a spike before firing, but once fired over time(not alot mind you) the resistance from air causes the round to elongate and turn into a perfect spike in the air, once its formed the penetrator tip is 1 molecule total and very hot. before that happens, the tip is much much much larger, meaning that the surface area of the impact is much much larger. this is how hyper speed projectiles work. there is nothing outside of physics that is needed to explain why the gauss doesnt do as much damage under 60 meters.

(before firing the spike is about 10 inches long, and looks like a lawn dart. after firing and covering enough distance, they looks like a rocket pop about 3 feet long.)

Edited by RedHairDave, 01 November 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[LordHarco]

Fuzzydragon, on 31 October 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

So I've been in MWO now since the first round of closed beta invites went out and the Gauss Rifle has since day one been one of the most bitched about weapons on the forums but unlike the LRM's and AC/2's witch got plenty of balancing tweaks over the months Gauss has strangely been ignored left as easily the most over powered weapon in the game.

the problem lies in the GR's incorrect stats witch are missing the weapons 60m Min. range allowing the weapon to deal massive damage at all ranges for no heat penalty witch leaves the AC/20 with it's slightly bigger punch massive heat penalty and short range feeling more like a downgrade.

reinstating the GR's minimum range would make mounting a GR a far more serious gamble
as mechs that manage to penetrate that 60m will pose a far more serious threat should the GR Mech have failed to mount sufficient close range weaponry.

last i check one of the only wpns in mwo that truly works as it is supposed to is the guass. It isnt broken just the rest of the wpn are. An no i have never used a guass cat and rairly a guass. Dont like them.

[WardenWolf]

Fixing DHS, which is coming, will make other weapons more effective in comparison. Combine that with a two-size hardpoint system, which would prevent using dual Gauss on the Cat K2, and you have fixed the *entire* Gauss problem.

Yes, other mechs will come up that can mount two - but the only ones currently planned both have built-in deficiencies:

JagerMech - they are in the arms, so easier to destroy

Cataphract - one in the right arm, one in the right torso; this makes hitting with both in the same spot harder, and makes it so removing the right torso takes out both (a weakness similar to the JagerMech)

RedHairDave, on 01 November 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

its called aerodynamic shaped penetrator. its what happens to modern day magnetically accelerated slugs. the slugs are shaped into a spike before firing, but once fired over time(not alot mind you) the resistance from air causes the round to elongate and turn into a perfect spike in the air, once its formed the penetrator tip is 1 molecule total and very hot. before that happens, the tip is much much much larger, meaning that the surface area of the impact is much much larger. this is how hyper speed projectiles work. there is nothing outside of physics that is needed to explain why the gauss doesnt do as much damage under 60 meters.

*reduced* damage under 60 meters could make some sense, if additional balance is needed after the things mentioned above; perhaps 10 damage instead of 15? But no damage would be illogical... and again, I would fix the Cat K2 before changing the weapon itself.

[wanderer]

The simple fixes- the aforementioned reduced damage (just halve it) inside 60m, and reducing maximum range to 2x rather than 3x. It'll seriously cut down sniping damage at long ranges.

If you REALLY had to, tweak it's ROF by a half-second, a full second at most.

[Ceribus]

wanderer, on 01 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

The simple fixes- the aforementioned reduced damage (just halve it) inside 60m, and reducing maximum range to 2x rather than 3x. It'll seriously cut down sniping damage at long ranges.

If you REALLY had to, tweak it's ROF by a half-second, a full second at most.

I stand by the fact that if they can hit someone at 3X range they deserve it ause you can barely make out a mech at that range right now it gets so fuzzy

[Torben Ivarson]

If nothing else, the argument is made that if the online game is going to stick to the board game rules for minimum range with missiles and PPCs then it should stick to minimum range with Gauss Rifle. The guass rifle in effect was designed with a minimum range of 60m for game purposes.

[Omar Thirds]

They already ruined the gauss by making it not hitscan.

[RedHairDave]

WardenWolf, on 01 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Fixing DHS, which is coming, will make other weapons more effective in comparison. Combine that with a two-size hardpoint system, which would prevent using dual Gauss on the Cat K2, and you have fixed the *entire* Gauss problem.

Yes, other mechs will come up that can mount two - but the only ones currently planned both have built-in deficiencies:

JagerMech - they are in the arms, so easier to destroy

Cataphract - one in the right arm, one in the right torso; this makes hitting with both in the same spot harder, and makes it so removing the right torso takes out both (a weakness similar to the JagerMech)


*reduced* damage under 60 meters could make some sense, if additional balance is needed after the things mentioned above; perhaps 10 damage instead of 15? But no damage would be illogical... and again, I would fix the Cat K2 before changing the weapon itself.

i dont see any reason it cant have the same scaling as what ever the ppc uses for close range. there is a good enough reason it does less damage up close, and really they dont need a reason.; its a game. just ctrl C and ctrl V the ppc mechanic into the gauss mechanic, then tell everyone that is now reality.

Edited by RedHairDave, 01 November 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Xandralkus]

Personally I would like a 'charge-up' time for the gauss. Press and hold the trigger (after it is off cooldown) to charge the weapon. Release to fire. Even if this was only a half-second, it would reduce the brawler-utility of the gauss.

Two or more Gauss Rifles fired in tandem would require double (or triple) the charge-up time.

Firing before it is fully charged would reduce damage accordingly (and projectile speed).

This would allow brawlers to still use it, it would just take FAR more skill than it does presently. The AC-20 would once again excel as the brawling ballistic weapon.

Don't constrain the Gauss to sniping only, narrowly constrained roles are bad. Just like you can place an AC-20 shell on a target at 500 meters if you're good, the gauss should be technically capable of brawling, just nowhere near as good at it as the AC-20 is.

[Xandralkus]

Personally I would like a 'charge-up' time for the gauss. Press and hold the trigger (after it is off cooldown) to charge the weapon. Release to fire. Even if this was only a half-second, it would reduce the brawler-utility of the gauss.

Two or more Gauss Rifles fired in tandem would require double (or triple) the charge-up time.

Firing before it is fully charged would reduce damage accordingly (and projectile speed).

This would allow brawlers to still use it, it would just take FAR more skill than it does presently. The AC-20 would once again excel as the brawling ballistic weapon.

Don't constrain the Gauss to sniping only, narrowly constrained roles are bad. Just like you can place an AC-20 shell on a target at 500 meters if you're good, the gauss should be technically capable of brawling, just nowhere near as good at it as the AC-20 is.

Torben Ivarson, on 01 November 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

If nothing else, the argument is made that if the online game is going to stick to the board game rules for minimum range with missiles and PPCs then it should stick to minimum range with Gauss Rifle. The guass rifle in effect was designed with a minimum range of 60m for game purposes.

Continued adherance to TT in an online game is completely nonsensical. It is like continued adherance to bunker design fundamentals when trying to design an aircraft. At best, it is going to be derpy and ineffective if it works at all. At worst, it will fail at maximum velocity. TT was never anything more than a vague 'start here' sign at the beginning of the game design maze.

[Solis Obscuri]

With some upcoming changes to PPCs and DHS, I'd hold off on messing with the Gauss Rifle too much just yet.