200 replies to this topic

[Draco Argentum]

Now that the initial open beta thread rush has slowed a little its time for more talk about the mech xp system and why it is a net negative to the game.

1) Boring bonuses

The bonuses are not interesting, flat numbers never are. 2.5% faster convergance could be really powerful for all we know, but its an always on bonus that requires no thought or skill. It adds nothing to gameplay. A large conditional bonus by contrast gives you something as a reward for playing a certain way. Its more interactive and skill based. A large bonus that is always on is less interesting but might still change tactics. Small bonuses usually won't change tactics, just improve existing ones.


2) No choices

It is possible (actually mandatory to progress) to unlock everything and use them all at once. Again, this adds no thought to the game, just an xp accumulation until you have everything. Unlocking things that you can choose a subset of allows the fun of trying out new builds. This system only has one build, you just need a bunch of xp before you can play it. ie, its only a timesink whereas something that forced choices would be a timesink and a customisation element. Mechanics that are nothing but a timesink only add the annoyance of grinding to a game without offering the fun of customisation in return.


3) Have to play varients you don't want to:

If I play an Awesome I want to play a PPC toting mech, loading it up with ballistics to satisfy a game requirement is not adding to the fun. Its not that I wouldn't necessarily try new varients out on my own. The issue is that to elite the varient I wanted ASAP I have to play those other varients now, rather than in my own time. Since people have chimed in about the bonuses not being a big deal let me point out that elite doubles the bonuses of basic tier. Thats a big deal if basic tier bonuses are at all noticable.


4) Possibly have to play the same role more than once

Lets assume I play a cataplt as a missile support mech. I probably don't want to play the exact same role again because getting a different chassis is abot new roles. But the elite rules mean that if I don't want to play a second heavy class missile support mech I'll have to find a heavy chassis which has three non missile varients. Or play a heavy chassis as an srm mech. This is obvioulsy less likely to come up in play than 3.


5) Not scalable with new chassis

This one doesn't bother me as a customer. But from a buisness standpoint its an issue. Once people have unlocked mastery on a weight class they never have to do that again. The result is that as you add new content it doesn't have the same hours of gameplay per developement hour that the original content had.


6) Discourages people from trying new chassis

Once I have a Jenner and a Raven fully unlocked do I really want to go to the trouble/expense of unlocking a third light mech? Probably not, I can stick with what I've got. There goes a chance for PGI to sell me things. If I only like assault mechs in moderation and would like an AWS-8Q I still have to unlock 5 more assault mechs. Or I can just not bother and stick with lights. The way it is set up provides a significant barrier to entry for longer term players to take new chassis seriously.



In summary this system adds no interesting things to the game, its designed as a time sink and nothing more.

[Hexagonal]

Well said. Fully agreed.

[Lavrenti]

I concur, your excellency. There should be rewards for specialisation, and meaningful choices to make about what to spend the XP on.

[dilluminati]

Agreed, should be a tree shape like many other games have.

[Rifter]

Agree

[Telthalion]

Also agreed. We need some actual choices (exclusive ones), not just "pick which ones you want first".

And, as mentioned above, some sort of tangible benefit for specializing into a specific role at the expense of others.

Personally, I would also be in favor of making the perks 'mech-specific, rather than by chassis/variant. Or, as I've seen mentioned in another post, start out more general (Light 'mechs), then progressively focus your perks into a specific chassis, a specific variant, then a specific owned 'mech as you progress higher into the tiers, with stronger/more unique benefits as you go.

[Theodor Kling]

Yeah the "having to own and grind 3 vairants" is annoying. Especially if one of them is completeley against your play style. And a tree would be great indeed.

But on the other hand, judging from what the devs said , the current skill system ( the pilot one even more so) is a just placeholder, so there is still hope.

[Zogrim]

Agreed. Current XP system is boring and is looking more like a placeholder

[bobthebomb]

I think too the system xp is lacking :

-1 : you get all the bonuses : What the point of xp if everyone get the same bonuses. i mean everyone get the bonus, there is no choice at all ! it would be better to do something like 5/7 level for each mech variant and propose a choice between 2/4 bonuses at each level.

-2: More interesting bonus : if we follow what i have said in -1. maybe we could get stronger choice and something more interesting than +7% speed.

-3 i propose an example, something simple (all number are random)

Hunchback 4g : xp tree

At each level you choose one bonus only !

-lvl 1 aka MOVE level : Turn speed increase by X% or top speed increase by X% or acceleration increase by X%

lvl 2 aka Right torso level : Bonus heat reduction or weapon solidity or weapon ammo

lvl 3 aka engine level : Max engine size bonus or engine resistance bonus bonus or give Heatsink slot in engine.

lvl 4 aka torso level : increase torso rotation radius by X% , lateral speed of torso increased by X% or increase torso up and down angle by X%

lvl 5 aka ultimate level : One more module slot / or bonus to internal structure or something cool (i don't have idea)

i did this in 5 minutes so don't except the incredible. i just want to show that an xp system like this :

-Each mech you own could have different bonus
-Even 2 hunchback 4g could be different
-You don't need to train the chassis.
-give a more attractive grind
-ppl could own different version of the the same mech : ie one 4g for my ac20 and one 4g for my gauss, each one with different choice.
-Would increase the number of mech build.
-Could serve as a balancing choice for less used mech chassis by giving stronger choice.
-you could sell respec for MC.

If you are creative enought to get good idea for each level (i am not) you will get something a lot more fun than what we have now.

Edited by bobthebomb, 01 November 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[Kremnican]

I agree, the XP system is absolute trash. To have all the same skills on all the mech variants is simply totally dissapointing to me. I thought it to be a placeholder for something more complex, but it simply doesn't look like there is going to be anything else there.

[Protection]

I'd really like more choices to make, and more of a tree system, rather than flat upgrades.

Also, I need something for my XP to do other than just accumulate after I unlock Master.

[Draco Argentum]

Protection, on 01 November 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

I'd really like more choices to make, and more of a tree system, rather than flat upgrades.

Also, I need something for my XP to do other than just accumulate after I unlock Master.

I actually don't want a tree. I'll put what I'd do up on the weekend, I kept it out of this thread to keep the issues seperate from my thoughts on the solution.

You do have something to do with MXP after master though. Spend MC to convet it to GXP. The system was taken from World of Tanks whole cloth and its apparently quite lucrative there no matter how aweful it is from a player perspective.

[Ran]

I feel that the Mass Effect three tree structure worked well for character diversification. You can only pick one choice at each level. You would never have enough points to fully level every area of a suit. Each suit would have five categories, or something to that extent.

Example:
Heat: [Cumulative bonuses]
Lvl 1 - Increase cap by 2.25%
Lvl 2 - Increase discharge by 2.25%
Lvl 3a - Increase cap by 2.25%
Lvl 3b - Increase discharge by 2.25%
Lvl 4a - Increase cap by 2.25%
Lvl 4b - Increase discharge by 2.25%
Lvl 5a - Increase cap by 5%, and your suit ignores heat shutdowns.
Lvl 5b - Increase discharge by 5%, and your suit discharges 5% faster when standing still.

Players could reset their point allocations by purchasing a premium item, or 2-3 million Cbills.

Edited by Ran, 01 November 2012 - 12:49 AM.

[EDMW CSN]

As long they are no silly things like Phantom Mech ability, I am fine with more tweaks.
For those who don't know about PMA, google it.

[Allekai]

I initially voted yes but after read the OP's post the are some very good and valid points that I definately agree to.. I voted yes initially as I believe in the XP as a progression system which rewards players for excelling at a particular role in MWO however I don't like the buying multiple variants so I can level up more.. it just wastes C-bills but there should be some specialisation rewards for different weapons and systems like there has been in some past BT titles which would reward players for mastering certain skills.

[Mister Haha]

agree. very much dislike the 3 mech grind, especially when going for the atlas...

[bobthebomb]

EDMW CSN, on 01 November 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

As long they are no silly things like Phantom Mech ability, I am fine with more tweaks.
For those who don't know about PMA, google it.

PMA is a "main character power" like in gundam or x-or.

[Draco Argentum]

Allekai, on 01 November 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

I initially voted yes but after read the OP's post the are some very good and valid points that I definately agree to..

Make sure to change your vote.

[EDMW CSN]

bobthebomb, on 01 November 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

PMA is a "main character power" like in gundam or x-or.

Or stuff like Metal Storm in Borderlands.
After each kill, gain 60% ROF and 60% heat reduction for a short time.
Moar LRMs moar streaks, moar gauss shooty, moar !

[Noth]

I'll just say this, the choice in the system comes at the module level, thus is related to the pilot skills, not the mech skills. Why is it this way? The pilot skills takes a lot longer to grind out thus you are working towards them for longer. Being module based also allows you to switch between matches even when using the same mech. Thus you end up with choice that you can change as needed.