200 replies to this topic

[Rejarial Galatan]

<blinks> side note noth: we have now spilled into TWO threads going on about the same thing lol. <continues>

Basic SA is not always going to stop a mech from coming in undetected from your rear arc. You are at YOUR base lets say. Lets say, your base is on the SOUTH end of the map. Mine, North end. Sound good so far? hope so. Next, you are facing to the NE and scanning almost 180 W through to E, BUT, I just so happen to know a path that comes in from extreme SW if I follow the edge of the map. you are, basically aware of your area, but, totally oblivious to my approach because I am coming in from 182-190 degrees, or basically WSW if you will. Radar would pick me up in an instant, but, because you lack it, I am unnoticed and take you by surprise.

[Noth]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 November 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

<blinks> side note noth: we have now spilled into TWO threads going on about the same thing lol. <continues>

Basic SA is not always going to stop a mech from coming in undetected from your rear arc. You are at YOUR base lets say. Lets say, your base is on the SOUTH end of the map. Mine, North end. Sound good so far? hope so. Next, you are facing to the NE and scanning almost 180 W through to E, BUT, I just so happen to know a path that comes in from extreme SW if I follow the edge of the map. you are, basically aware of your area, but, totally oblivious to my approach because I am coming in from 182-190 degrees, or basically WSW if you will. Radar would pick me up in an instant, but, because you lack it, I am unnoticed and take you by surprise.

With basic situational awareness I'd know of that path my panning would include that. A little leg turning and you can virtually cover all site lines as you advance. BTW, panning 90 degrees to each side gives me far over 180 degrees of vision. It's giving me about 250 degrees of vision. Throwing in a little leg turning or simply being in a Catapult, I can cover it all. Or better yet having coordination with a team you'd never get a chance to appraoch without being seen as scouts would pick you up.

Trust me I sneak up on people all the time and the only reason I can is because they get tunnel vision and pay no attention to their surroundings even when I'm spotted by their team mates (radar would not save these people at all). You can prevent it, it just takes effort on your part.

[Rejarial Galatan]

I think we are at an impasse. You think its not needed, I think it is, so, hows this: Add it in, but have an option to shut it down. Keeps us all happy. Why did we not think of THAT sooner? <looks at all of us PRO-Radar crowd>

[Noth]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 November 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

I think we are at an impasse. You think its not needed, I think it is, so, hows this: Add it in, but have an option to shut it down. Keeps us all happy. Why did we not think of THAT sooner? <looks at all of us PRO-Radar crowd>

You'll get BAP for 360 degree radar in all likelihood. So you will get it, it will just cost you 1.5 tons and 2 crit spots. Even then smart play will trump it.

[Rejarial Galatan]

At the expense of a hardpoint that I could put something else in, something else than something that should be BUILT INTO THE MECH already!

[Noth]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 November 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

At the expense of a hardpoint that I could put something else in, something else than something that should be BUILT INTO THE MECH already!

It doesn't take up a hardpoint, just space and tonnage. It shouldn't be built into the mech because it doesn't fit the style of game the devs are going for.

[Rejarial Galatan]

they are making a mistake, pure and simple.

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 14 November 2012 - 06:02 PM.

[ThePhil]

Agreed.

[Noth]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 November 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

they are making a mistake, pure and simple.

Do you have evidence of this mistake or is it just because your Atlas has a weakness to flanking, thus you want team mates with you, thus this being a team game. Right now it seems a pretty smart decision as the game is proving popular.

[Rejarial Galatan]

my proof is every single piece of canon, lore that implicitly state that battle mechs have radar. or more bluntly:


The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]

The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.^[4]
edit: removed the codes that attached during copy/paste

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 14 November 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[Noth]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 November 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

my proof is every single piece of canon, lore that implicitly state that battle mechs have radar. or more bluntly:


The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]

The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.^[4]

That's nice, they are changing things in gameplay to fit their design and gameplay goals, just like all games do.

[Rejarial Galatan]

this is proof enough that radar DOES exist in this universe, and by rights MUST be added in. pure and simple. as I suggested before, put it in, give players a toggle in the options, let us move on. This is how this must be. Give it to us, make a switch, walk away.

[Noth]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 November 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

this is proof enough that radar DOES exist in this universe, and by rights MUST be added in. pure and simple. as I suggested before, put it in, give players a toggle in the options, let us move on. This is how this must be. Give it to us, make a switch, walk away.

I never said radar doesn't exist. I'm simply pointing out that the radar we have is a gameplay design and departs from lore for a purpose in order to meet the designers goals and design desires. An option for it would never be an option, you'd always have it on because it would give you an advantage. If the designers wanted you to have 360 degree radar as a base they would had given it to you. This debate has gone on throughout all of beta and not a single thing has changed when it came to the radar. If the some of the most logical and well thought out posts for radar didn't even sway it.

[Rejarial Galatan]

artificially limiting a players SA, and basically FORCING them to make tactical errors to compensate for it, is a bad design. To tell me, I MUST turn my back to you so I can see my rear arc is insulting, as its tactically unsound to show my back to a confirmed enemy simply because a red bar flashed saying I was struck in my back. Is that shot from up close? No way to know w/out radar. YOU are a confirmed threat, that red flash, is not, and to turn my back to you just to make sure, when I could faster and more simply look down at my RADAR and go: oh joy, nothing there, must be either an errant gauss shot or a sniper, time to focus fire on NOTH, is not helping anything. Giving me the ability to assess my situation faster and safer is what is needed.

But, you go ahead and keep exposing your back to your confirmed enemy just because you got a damage flash on your rear arc, see how well that works.

[Noth]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 November 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

artificially limiting a players SA, and basically FORCING them to make tactical errors to compensate for it, is a bad design. To tell me, I MUST turn my back to you so I can see my rear arc is insulting, as its tactically unsound to show my back to a confirmed enemy simply because a red bar flashed saying I was struck in my back. Is that shot from up close? No way to know w/out radar. YOU are a confirmed threat, that red flash, is not, and to turn my back to you just to make sure, when I could faster and more simply look down at my RADAR and go: oh joy, nothing there, must be either an errant gauss shot or a sniper, time to focus fire on NOTH, is not helping anything. Giving me the ability to assess my situation faster and safer is what is needed.

But, you go ahead and keep exposing your back to your confirmed enemy just because you got a damage flash on your rear arc, see how well that works.

You don't have to expose your back. There is movement and torso twisting (which you should be doing as it will make you live longer) that helps see you back without giving free shots the person in front of you. See this is what I'm talking about. You seem to think the only way to see what is behind you is by turning you back and that is simply not the case.

[Rejarial Galatan]

i can only turn so far in an atlas noth, at some point, my back WILL be open to you as I check behind me. See my idea break down for how I see this actually working over in 180 degree view thread.

[Draco Argentum]

Guys, take it to another thread.

[Batch1972]

It's not so much that the bonuses are uninspiring, it's the grind. You have to buy all the muchs and take all the perks before the next level.. and xp earned on one variant isn't transferrable except by using the paid for currency.. nah not good

[HC Harlequin]

I disagree wholeheartedly. You are talking about a human interacting with a machine. There is no "magic" to it.

People who drive vehicles, especially combat vehicles, will tell you how it works.. Driver and pilot time behind the wheel, or torsion bars or whatever, learn how the engine works, how the coolant system works, how to eek out the most from the turbo or fuel injector, when to tweak the governers, when to open the windows and turn on the heat, etc. Where the aftermarket transfer case overheat override button is and when to press it.

You can't just "magic" your way to a more efficient system. It has to work within the parameters of the machine.

[MustrumRidcully]

I had some ideas on how to create mech-specific mech efficiencies:

http://mwomercs.com/...ic-efficiencies

With mech-specific efficiencies i mean stuff that encourage or enforce the role and feel of a mech - for example, the Hunchback can take an efficiency that makes his hunch more resilient, the K2 gets one that makes his "arms" more effective as weapon platform. Things lke that.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 25 November 2012 - 06:11 AM.