8 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Edit: As several great people have pointed out below, the reason for the discrepancy is that the Cockpit is now being included in the engine weights so Endosteel works properly. Strip a mech completely of everything including armor and add the engine back on and it weighs what it should.

Problem solved.




The latest patch introduced a plethora of goodies. Things like Double Heatsinks, Endosteel and Ferro Fibrous. It also introduced some bugs... such as engine heatsinks being single when doubles are equipped. The developers have stated that these are being fixed.

It also introduced new weights for all the engines. These weights are wrong and after reading further, you, the reader will also agree they are wrong as well. The developers have made no comment yet on whether this is going to be fixed. It should--as if they are not, equipping endo/ferro only gives us back the weight these new engine weights robbed from us.

Lets start with what the rules say and I quote straight from 35103 Battletech Technical Manual:

Quote

"Every BattleMech requires a powerful gyroscope to keep it upright and able to move. The exact size of this gyro depends on the 'Mech's engine rating and the type of gyro used (standard, compact, heavy-duty or extra-light). To determine the weight for a gyro, divide the BattleMech's Engine Rating by 100 and round the result up to the nearest whole number. The resulting number is the gyro's base weight (in tons). To find the gyro's final weight, multiply this tonnage by the appropriate multiplier given in the Master Gyroscope Table below (rounding up this final result to the nearest half-ton)."

Table:
Gyroscope Type || Weight Multiplier || Slots Occupied
Compact || 1.5 || 2
Heavy-Duty || 2.0 || 4
Standard || 1.0 || 4
Extra-light (XL) || 0.5 || 6

Now, it is my understanding as of now we should have a standard gyro.

Wait, wasn't I talking about engines? I still am. In fact, I think the root of the problem might lie in gyros within the engines. Back around July the developers began linking gyros with engine weights. It took a little adjusting to but was fine--and the right thing to do. Per the rules, gyros are in fact linked with the engine rating, not the mech size.

So lets illustrate how this should work with our ubiquitous 300 XL. Prior to this latest patch, the 300 XL was weighted properly. It weight 12.5 tons. Now it weighs 15.5! So, lets see how we get there:

Per the table, a 300 XL by itself weighs 9.5 tons. Then you add the gyro which is computed...

300/100 = 3 (round to nearest whole number) ... this then becomes base weight.
next: base weight * multiplier (which we see above is 1 for a standard)
so... 3 * 1 = 3

In the 300 XL's case, the gyro should weigh 3 so the total tonnage of the engine should be... 9.5 + 3 = 12.5

Now, what if we use a heavy-duty gyro?
300/100 = 3
then per multiplier on table
3 * 2 = 6

In the 300 XL's case with a heavy-duty gyro, it should be 9.5 + 6 = 15.5.

Hmm, 15.5--that's what we have now.

Now, I go into mechlab. The gyro is taking up 4 slots. So, due to that alone it is either a Standard or Heavy duty. There is a type field but it is empty. I can only assume later they will let us change this--awesome! Not right now at least. But, it doesn't tell what type. We can only guess. So lets delve into the rabbit hole and calculate weights for other engines...

Standard 300 Engine:

Per the table in the TRO, base weight is... 19

300/100 = 3
3 * 1 = 3

19 + 3 = ... 22.

In MWO, the 300 STD is 25 tons. Wait... with heavy duty gyro that means per rules...

300/100 = 3
3 * 2 = 6

19 + 6 =.... 25!

Lets try another engine... randomly. Say, a 245.

245 STD:

245/100 = 2.45 ( round up to 3 per ruleset )
3 * 1 = 3

Per TRO, 245 STD + Gyro STD should weigh... 12 (base weight) + 3 = 15
Per MWO, 245 STD + Gyro weighs... 17? (this is perplexing to say the least!)
Per TRO, 245 STD + Gyro Heavy... 12 + (3 * 2) = 18

How'd they get the 17? I can only surmise instead of rounding 2.45 up to 3, they rounded it to 2.5...

Lets try the 250 STD to test our theory:

250/100 = 2.5 (round up to 3 per ruleset)
3 * 1 = 3 (std gyro)

Per TRO, 250 STD + Gyro STD should weigh... 12.5 (base weight) + 3 = 15.5
Per MWO, 250 STD + Gyro weighs... 18.5? (pulling my hair out now!)
Per TRO, 250 STD + Gyro Heavy... 12.5 + (3 * 2) = 18.5 (ahhh much better)

But why did they round up for the 250 (on the 3 factor) but not the 245?

What about... a 345?

345/100 = 3.45 (round up to 4 per ruleset)
4 * 1 = 4 (std gyro)

Per TRO, 345 STD + Gyro STD = 28.5 (base weight) + 4 = 32.5
Per MWO, 345 STD + Gyro = 35.5
Per TRO, 345 STD + Gyro Heavy... 28.5 + (4 * 2) = 36.5 ???? what?

Did they fail to round again? Let see, if they had rounded 3.45 to 3.5...

28.5 + (3.5 * 2 ) = ... 35.5!!! DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!

How about with the XL engines, does it persist with the XL also?

Take a 345 XL:

345/100 = 3.45 (round up to 4)
4 * 1 = 4 (std gyro)

Per TRO, 345 XL + Gyro STD = 14.5 + 4 = 18.5
Per MWO, 345 XL + Gyro = 21.5
Per TRO, 345 XL + Gyro Heavy... 14.5 + (4 * 2) = 22.5

DING DING DING. ROUNDING ERROR AGAIN! They rounded NOT to a whole number, but instead, the nearest whole tenths! From 3.45 to 3.5.

How about a 245 XL:

245/100 = 2.45 (round up to 3 per ruleset)
3 * 1 = 3 (std gyro)

Per TRO, 245 XL + Gyro STD = 6 (base weight) + 3 = 9
Per MWO, 245 XL + Gyro = 11
Per TRO, 345 XL + Gyro Heavy... 6 + (3 * 2) = 12

DING DING DING DING DING! ROUNDING ERROR ROUNDING ERROR! They rounded the 2.45 to 2.5 again. Thus, 6 + (2.5 * 2) = 11

Lets replicate that with say a 350 and then a 365...

350:

350/100 = 3.5 (round up to 4 per ruleset)
4 * 1 = 4 (std gyro)

Per TRO, 350 STD + Gyro STD = 29.5 + 4 = 33.5
Per MWO, 350 STD + Gyro = 36.5
Per TRO, 350 STD + Gyro Heavy = 29.5 + (4 * 2) = 37.5

DING DING DING! 3.5 remained 3.5 because it was a whole tenth and then they used the heavy gyro factor! ROUNDING ERROR AGAIN!

365:

355/100 = 3.55 (round up to 4 per ruleset)
4 * 1 = 4 (std gyro)

Per TRO, 355 STD + Gyro STD = 31.5 + 4 = 35.5
Per MWO, 355 STD + Gyro = 38.5 ???
Per TRO, 355 STD + Gyro Heavy = 31.5 + (4*2) = 39.5

Hmm... interesting. They didn't round the 3.55 up to 3.6... instead, they rounded... DOWN to the nearest whole or half number -- i.e. 3.5.

I think we're finally on to something here!

Lets go check out the 155 STD:

155/100 = 1.55 (round up to 2 per ruleset)
2 * 1 = 2 (std gyro)

Per TRO, 155 STD + Gyro STD = 5.5 + 2 = 7.5
Per MWO, 155 STD + Gyro = 6.5 ?????
Per TRO, 155 STD + Heavy Gyro = 5.5 + 4 = 9.5

Where's the 6.5 come from? In fact--I don't know! What I do know is ALL engines below 200 are screwed up in weight with some funky formula that doesn't factor in like the many of the engines 200+. The whole illustration above, however, applies to all engines over 200 with one final twist on the rounding relationship. Not only do we see rounding applied to the nearest whole or half number--but there are suspicious rounding gaps. From 250 - 300 rounding works as intended per the rulesets.

From 245 - 250 there is a breakdown and instead of rounding the 2.45 to a 3, it goes to a 2.5. The rounding then proceeds as a half number down to about 225 and then once you get to 220, they start rounding the 2.2 to a 2.

From 300+, rounding works to the nearest... half number? Strange indeed but this is the relationship.




As such, I can surmise liberties by the developers in the name of balance are being taken and point out TWO main things:

1. All engines are using the HEAVY GYRO weight, not the standard gyro weight now. Prior to the latest patch, they were using the STANDARD GYRO weights.

2. All engines are incorrectly applying the HEAVY GYRO weights via the second half of the rules stated at the top of the post via "funky rounding." Sub 200 it makes little sense. I bet I could figure it out and might attempt to later. Sub 250 they round down to the nearest whole number. from 250 - 300 rounding is correct. From 305+, rounding is incorrect to the nearest half number.

So, the engine weights are all just plain wrong. They need to give us back the standard gyro (or let us pick between standard and heavy--maybe they put the heavy gyro in as a placeholder to stop knockdowns?) Secondly, they need to fix the rounding and align it with the rules. Now, they might be giving lighter mechs a break and heavier engines a break--but, once we can choose between Standard and Heavy gyros, things are really going to be wonky. I'd say it is better to fix the rounding now than later. In say a 60 ton mech, at the moment, I'm now getting hosed out of 3 tons I should have due to the gyro being computed as a heavy gyro with funky rounding @ 300 instead of it being a standard gyro.

I believe at the very least I've proven they are using the heavy gyro multiplier of 2 instead of the standard gyro multiplier of 1.

The engine weights are just broken and wrong right now as is and it is very, very simple to fix and align them back to normal if the developers simply followed the rule quoted above.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 01 November 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Vermaxx]

You did a lot of math instead of just asking.

The engine includes cockpit and the correct standard gyro weight for the book-value engine tonnage.

AND, a minus for any heatsinks it cannot contain, or a plus for any EXTRA sinks it comes default with. IE the standard 200 is engine plus cockpit plus gyro MINUS TWO for the phantom sinks.

[SteelPaladin]

Folks went over this a few times between the patch and the beta forum wipe. The conclusion was basically that the TOTAL weight IS right, it's just not right specifically for the engine. The way they're working things is dump all the mandatory weight into the engine component, then adjust it for mandatory HS weight. Let's look at your 155, for example:

Per TRO, 155 STD + Gyro STD + Cockpit + 4 HS outside the engine to reach mandatory 10 = 5.5 + 2 + 3 + 0 (mandatory HS are weightless) = 10.5

Per MWO 155 STD + Gyro STD + Cockpit + 4 HS outside the engine to reach mandatory 10 = 6.5 + 0 (gyro is rolled into engine) + 0 (cockpit is rolled into engine) + 4 (MWO doesn't support 0 weight HS) = 10.5

See how the totals match?

[Khobai]

Engine includes the weight of the cockpit and gyro, the reason the cockpit weight is rolled into the engine, is so endosteel calculates correctly.

[Minsc]

Everyone above summed everything up nicely. The current engine weights include the weight of your gyro, cockpit, and plus or minus the internal heat sinks. Ultimately all this does is take the current weight of everything and redistribute it differently to end up at the same value.

[Mister Blastman]

Hmm, yes, the cockpit is included in the engines now. I see that. Makes sense but doesn't--kind of counter-intuitive.

Either way, I'd rather attempt to post something constructive rather than inflammatory for a change.

[Zyllos]

As per Vermaxx, they also include the Cockpit weight into the engine (which is an issue because Small Cockpits exist, but thats a whole other issue) so that makes up for the added weight.

And, if your engine is below the 250 mark, meaning you need to add another heatsink OUTSIDE the engine, they reduce the weight by that number of heatsinks needed to reach the minimum 10. But this has than issue with the 125 or less XL (who uses those?). If you follow that formula, you will get 0.0 weight or -0.5 weight. But they just added some tonnage to them anyways.

Engines at around 125 or lower just do not reflect the correct weights. But, are there any mechs that use that small of an engine, canonicly?

[Tickdoff Tank]

Vermaxx, on 01 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

You did a lot of math instead of just asking.

The engine includes cockpit and the correct standard gyro weight for the book-value engine tonnage.

AND, a minus for any heatsinks it cannot contain, or a plus for any EXTRA sinks it comes default with. IE the standard 200 is engine plus cockpit plus gyro MINUS TWO for the phantom sinks.

Comment on the underlined part:

No engine in MWO has had additional weight added to it. An engine rating of 275+ has additional space for heatsinks, but you have to manually place them. But all of the engines in the purchase window are at the correct weight for their given rating. (with the weight of the gyro and the cockpit added)

Everything else you posted was spot on.

edit: Never checked the tonnage on the lowest engines, so the above poster may be correct. But for engines above 175 they are the right tonnage.

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 01 November 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[Zyllos]

Tickdoff Tank, on 01 November 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Comment on the underlined part:

No engine in MWO has had additional weight added to it. An engine rating of 275+ has additional space for heatsinks, but you have to manually place them. But all of the engines in the purchase window are at the correct weight for their given rating. (with the weight of the gyro and the cockpit added)

Everything else you posted was spot on.

That is not 100% true, try the calculation for an 100 XL engine. Using the above, you get:

1.5t TT Engine + 1.0t Gyro + 3.0t Cockpit - 6.0t for 6 needed heatsinks = -0.5t

Weighs 0.5t in MWO.

Why is the included Cockpit/Gyro weight into the engine needed for Endo-Steel? Couldn't they just take the weight of the mech (50t mech) and do:

Mech Weight * 0.1 = Internal Structure Weight

Internal Structure Weight * 0.5 = Endo-Steel Internal Structure Weight

Internal Structure is a function of the mech tonnage, not what is included on the mech. All I can say is hopefully they coded their objects correctly so only minor changes are needed when Small Cockpits and Heavy Duty Gyros come out.

Either way...

Edited by Zyllos, 01 November 2012 - 09:38 AM.