96 replies to this topic

[Ghost]

The one thing we don't know about the gauss rifle is how they keep the barrel/magnets from melting due to friction during firing. It's obliquely mentioned that the projectiles are specially-designed for the weapon, even though other materials can be used (at one point in the novels, a gauss rifle is loaded with a steel structural beam, which destroys the weapon after firing). So I wonder what they're using that can be described as a "silver ball."

Judging from the whole "explodes after a critical hit" rule, a lot of power is stored in the weapon itself, which would definitely reduce the load on the reactor. But I'm not sure that can explain why so little heat is generated by actually firing the weapon.

[rollermint]

That the cockpit is so hot that they go into the cockpit basically in underwears.

Talk about getting burns and blisters...With the way things are, all mechwarriors have the skin of sandpaper and road gravel....lol

[RotS Targe]

I've always scoffed at the distribution of shots, especially when the weapons are mounted right next to each other.
Next time you read a book, look at the mech. See the 3 lasers mounted right next to each other? (I'm using the Wolfhound in this example) Now, when the 3 lasers are fired, one hits the arm, another hits the leg, and the last one misses. THEY ARE PARALLEL!!! Was the Author throwing darts to determine hits?

As for the flamers, you need to generate more plasma to make up for the plasma you are spraying on the PBIs, so you don't drain your engine of fuel. Creating plasma generates heat. This also works on Jump Jets.

[CloudCobra]

This topic made me lol it reminds me of the websites that take a critical eye to Star Wars..... hilarious! Hats off to you only a true fan could even come up with a list like that.

[Joe Davion 86]

Ghost, on 09 April 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

The one thing we don't know about the gauss rifle is how they keep the barrel/magnets from melting due to friction during firing. It's obliquely mentioned that the projectiles are specially-designed for the weapon, even though other materials can be used (at one point in the novels, a gauss rifle is loaded with a steel structural beam, which destroys the weapon after firing). So I wonder what they're using that can be described as a "silver ball."

Judging from the whole "explodes after a critical hit" rule, a lot of power is stored in the weapon itself, which would definitely reduce the load on the reactor. But I'm not sure that can explain why so little heat is generated by actually firing the weapon.

well from a few of the books describe the guass rifle ammo as nickel-iron slugs, and as for the lack of heat it comes from the fact that there is no actual contact (read friction) between the slug and the barrel of the weapon. it uses magnents to keep the slug centered in the barrel. as far as i can tell anyway.

[Jake Valeck]

Roh, on 09 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Op, I would very much like it if you didn't try to pollute my joyous fantasies with your filthy, dirty logic!!

exactly

edit: one of the devs said in an interview "its about giant robots beeting the crap out of each other"

who freakin cares at that point just give me one so i can do just that with totally un-realistic weapons.

Edited by Jake Valeck, 09 April 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[GrimFist]

I want to make it clear that I love the rich BT universe.

A few things are missing – warships – they exist but you don’t have much of a mech fight if they shoot first and ask questions later.

Sure Kerensky dog took his toys and left town. 80% is not 100 percent and not all of them were blown to bits.

Let’s shrink it down.

Let’s take a a lance of assault battle mechs and compare the cost to aerospace assets.

Atlas – 9,636,000 c-bills.
1xAutocannon/20
1xLRM-20
1xSRM-6
4xMedium Lasers

Highlander – 8,936,080 c-bills
2xMedium Lasers
1xSRM-6
1xLRM-20
1xGauss Rifle

Zeus - 7,617,900 c-bills

1xLarge Laser
1xLRM-15
2xMedium Lasers
1xAutocannon/5

Stalker – 7,463,825 c-bills

2xLRM-10s
2xLarge Lasers
4xMedium Lasers
2xSRM-6s

Total Cost = 33,653,805

Let’s go the air power – We know what modern air power does to armor.

A lance of 4 Chippewa fighters 21,642,210

2x LRM-15s
4xLarge lasers
2xSmall Lasers
2xMedium Lasers
1x SRM6

Since I have c-bills to burn – could buy the following:

4 heavy aerospace fighters – 60 tons

Hellcat – 2,922,080 x 4 = 11,688,322 c-bills

3 Large Lasers
5 Medium Lasers

Leaving 323,273 c-bills for a squadron party, trip to vegas and all that.

So after strafing the lance with 90 ton Chippewa fighters from range with 8 LRM 15’s and 16 Large lasers, if I needed help the laser boats come in.

With plenty of $$$ left over to get the pilots jazzed up on mountain dew and pezz.

J

Oh and for about 50,000 c-bills a day I can hire a well trained infantry company (100 men) to move in and keep the peace.

So we better hope they don’t bring aerospace fighters into the mix. We’d all be scrap.

That is until some Riflemen showed up and started to earn their keep.

Grim

[Requital]

Flamers: Fusion plasma or whatever you want to call it is contained in a cooled and magnetically shielded chamber, untill you fire it out...something tells me the weapons passages do not have the same level of containment...if they did the mech would be overweight with only one or two flamers and no other weapons.

the rest is pretty spot on....except the important people leading the charge in a flashy mech. Most of these societies mentioned are back to a fuedal system...more than just in government...social thinking is very backward and reminds one more of medival times than even modern society we enjoy(most of the time) today. I would expect an important figure leading the charge would be a key aspect to drumming up support and a way of life in the enviroments mentioned.

That being said, formations will get you killed.

[Der Kommissar]

Battletech is never a setting that will make sense, because it is about giant robots wot beat each other up.

Gauss rifles don't produce heat because the reactor is passively charging the capacitors constantly (this is also why they explode, because they're always charged). Yes, the gauss rifle is arguably a broken weapon, but there is an explanation for why it's a cool-running weapon.

[Insidious Johnson]

Got nothing to add here but it is great reading and deserves the hearty bump given by this post!

[CCC Dober]

The whole Jump Jet concept is a bit shaky too, much as I love DFA's.
It really takes a leap of faith when you look at the check list:

+ reactor provides sufficient energy
+ energy is transferred without major losses into plasma
+ plasma is safely chambered and vented during the operation
+ Mech is stable and controllable during JJ operations
+ 100t Mechs can fly too
+ ...

Have any of you seen modern rocket launches and how much trouble it causes to lift just a couple kilograms into space?
But ofc, Mechs are 30th century, using partially outdated concepts from the 80's of the 20th century ... really???
How can they fly again? By taking the leap of faith. There's a lot of wishful thinking involved here, not that I mind though.

Edited by CCC_Dober, 09 April 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Lt Trevnor, on 09 April 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

I would prefer that honestly. Sure, canon is great and all, but if it was evolved to make more sense in the scientific arena, I'd be very happy!

Careful what you say. I smell oil and hear the masses chopping wood. "Evolve" you say... I know not this word you spake. Engage with the belief of others at your peril young thinker, even in such whimsy as this.

[Victor Morson]

I really think it'd be easy to create a BattleTech drinking game, except given you'd be reading it and probably alone, it'd be the most depressing one ever.

rollermint, on 09 April 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

That the cockpit is so hot that they go into the cockpit basically in underwears.

Talk about getting burns and blisters...With the way things are, all mechwarriors have the skin of sandpaper and road gravel....lol

Cockpits getting hot from waste reactor heat is something I take on the universe's own logic again; I wouldn't land on it, because it's pretty consistent in all the fiction. It's pretty funny if you think about it in real world terms though. You've only got two scenarios here: Enough radiation that every MechWarrior would die from cancer in a year tops or the minute they alpha strike they flash fry to ash.

I'm pretty sure if you're basically sitting on top of a nuclear power plant and something happens that causes enough heat to get past all the thermal shields and cooling methods enough for you to notice, you are totally boned.

Then again, I'm not a nuclear expert so maybe there's some logic on this one and I'm overestimating it. Still, I won't complain - this is one of those internally consistent quirks and that's the best we can ask for in any sci-fi, ever.

Requital, on 09 April 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

the rest is pretty spot on....except the important people leading the charge in a flashy mech. Most of these societies mentioned are back to a fuedal system...more than just in government...social thinking is very backward and reminds one more of medival times than even modern society we enjoy(most of the time) today. I would expect an important figure leading the charge would be a key aspect to drumming up support and a way of life in the enviroments mentioned.

That being said, formations will get you killed.

I'd say that makes sense, except until the Civil War era of writing they didn't. Compare Hanse to Victor in the Davions; sure he did his time in the military and did take his Battlemaster out to defend the palace once, but you didn't see him at the front of every single big battle. In particular when his death would end his entire faction and he had no one to take over lined up.

It gets even funnier when characters end up committing suicide trying to save him over and over and he keeps on doing it, but nobody writing the fiction seems to get the idea how terrible it is. If you want a laugh sometime, try playing a civil war campaign centered around Victor and see how many battles happen before somebody hits his cockpit with a stray Gauss round or TACs his engine. For added kicks give the other side the win condition of killing him so they're all trying to.

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 April 2012 - 11:00 PM.

[Sug]

Victor Morson, on 09 April 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Clearly, if it's 50 degrees or 80 degrees out will make a huge impact on the heat inside of a fusion engine. Of course if you put your heatsinks into a vacuum, they'll clearly work really, really well!

It's late and i can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but heatsinks would probably not function well in a vacuum as there would be nothing to transfer the heat to.

[Karel Spaten]

GrimFist, on 09 April 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Oh and for about 50,000 c-bills a day I can hire a well trained infantry company (100 men) to move in and keep the peace.

So we better hope they don’t bring aerospace fighters into the mix. We’d all be scrap.

That is until some Riflemen showed up and started to earn their keep.

Wait, what? You mean that Battlemechs are a militarily stupid idea that only function through the rule of cool?

[SovietKoshka]

huh well thanks for stealing my thunder of explaining why a gauss rifle would toast ya...

on the matter of why all mech warriors dont have cancer, or are dieing of radiation sickness. a fission reactor works via splitting attoms, and in the process greats vasts amounts of harmful ionizing radiation, while a FUSION reactor works by creating a small sun (or the teperature of fusion 15,000,000 degrees celsius, whichever sounds more poetic) which then creats matter and heavy metals, with out vasts amounts of harmful radiation.(theres still dangerous radiation but its easily gotten contained, as it is no where near the scale of fission reactors.

OH and heat can travel through a vaccume (thats why people get sun burns fyi... though Uv light has a bit to do with that as well) HEAT is another form of radiation, just like ionizing radiation, but heat alone is not going to give you cancer.... so buy mounting a heat sink in a vaccume one should be able to increass the function of cooling. wow im sleepy... good night..... pineapple.

[Kartr]

John Wolf, on 09 April 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Rear mounted weapons just make the rear facing of a mech a threat, where as most cases a mech is defenseless from the rear. As for the rifleman, the NORM is mech weapondry only facing forward, when you see that all the time sometimes you forget that Mech X can do a simple arm flip. This happens in ALL kinds of things, the fact that you think its impossible to forget a feature on one mech you may not fight all the time is a little silly.

Except a small laser is not only a very short range weapon, it does very little damage and would be extremely difficult to aim. Also while I can see someone forgetting in the heat of battle that the arms flip, you'd think that after decades of training and experience it would be something you'd instinctively know.

John Wolf, on 09 April 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

I'm gonna have to stay out of this thread or I'll feel like an english teacher with a red pen. 'point blank' is not 10 feet, remember, one hex range is still I believe 100 meters away? Its 'point blank' on the board, but there is still a range between the targets and easily possible to miss. Its not like you're putting the barrel of the weapon into the target's chest.

For tank scale combat 100m is point blank range, heck that's short-medium range for the modern infantryman. Considering the velocities of the weapons used at that range it is almost exactly like putting the weapon at the other 'Mechs chest. The only way you're going to miss is if you weren't aiming at him, snap shot as you went past kind of situation.

Maester, on 09 April 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

Good sirs, please, you must not understand the mechanics behind the fusion engine's operation: the harder you drain them, the colder their core becomes - completely unlike those heat machines we use today - although, I must admit, that the wire that feed's this power to subsystems may get hot. The latter must be fairly limited, because we are more than once told that in the mech we have high voltage and low amperage.
Although here, and preety much everywhere, I see a "bad" (as opposed to good) bet of confusion btw the principaly different accelerator concepts: the "rail" and the "gauss". The former been the user of Ampers force, the latter - the magnetism forces. As far as I am led to belive the gauss in the BTT is same as gauss in IRL - the magnetic one, which is viewed by modern science as a good (potential) mean to launch BIG projectiles with reasonable speeds of 3-5 km/s (approx. twice the speed of modern tank gun sabots). This is due to self-contradiction: the need to reach high magnetic field on coil, and in the same time have the coils on and off very fast. Worth noting, that although the coils are powered by high voltage (that fits well in the mech's design) the magnetic field is generated by current - so unless the coils in BTT are maid of superconductor they will have some heat from the shot (with modern installments into gauss gun having efficiency 1/3 top, the heat must be noticeable).

Except that in BattleTech that's not how the reactors work. The more energy you use the more energy the reactor has to generate which causes the reactor to heat up accordingly. So rather than the fusion engine cooling down as its used, it heats up. Which is kind of what the poster was pointing out, you run, fire your weapons, etc and the heat goes way up.

Maester, on 09 April 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

And the game absolutely must not be "real" to be great and fun, although the BTT is very much realistic compared to most other settings:)

BT is no more realistic than any other setting like Star Trek or Star Wars or Lord of the Rings. Magically implausible materials and equipment is used to satisfy certain points the story needs to function.

Hao Yu, on 09 April 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

The greatest lack of logic for me is still in the basic game. You don't even need to add the fluff. Autocannons being heavier than lasers? Lighter and smaller shells having greater range than heavy cannons?

Considering these are multi-shot weapons (the ACs) it makes complete sense that smaller lighter shells have a greater range as they would have less recoil and their groupings would stay much tighter over much longer ranges. The ranges aren't a matter of the velocity of an individual shell, but rather the grouping of all the shells fired in a burst.

SovietKoshka, on 10 April 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

OH and heat can travel through a vaccume (thats why people get sun burns fyi... though Uv light has a bit to do with that as well) HEAT is another form of radiation, just like ionizing radiation, but heat alone is not going to give you cancer.... so buy mounting a heat sink in a vaccume one should be able to increass the function of cooling. wow im sleepy... good night..... pineapple.

Sun burns are created by UV radiation not radient heat from the sun. Heat is not radiation, heat is the amount of energy a molecule or large group of molecules contains. Temperature is a measure of the energy being transferred from one molecule to another molecule. Radient heat (the heat you feel coming off a hot stove top) is simply the transfer of energy from the heating element to the molecules in the air to your hand. Without any molecules, such as in a vaccuum, there can be no transfer of "heat" because there is nothing for the energy to move into. So vaccuum makes a very poor coolant as there can be no transfer of heat without molecules.

[Killashnikov]

Fission reactors and Fusion reactors operate on the same principle as a coal fired power station, the only difference is the source of heat to create steam (and in the case of fission reactors, the containment required to keep the radioactive by-products away from the environment.) In Fission the heat comes from atom decay, in fusion, it is created by the tiny amount of mass lost when larger atoms are created by mashing smaller ones together. To create more power it is necessary to raise the temperature of the core in order to generate more steam to drive the turbines which drive generators which provide electrical power.
Even assuming a completely different reactor design, the energy of a fusion reaction is released as heat, and this heat is essential to maintain the reaction. In fusion reactions, if you allow the core temperature to drop, the chain reaction will collapse.
Therefore as more energy is required from the reactor, the reactor must generate more heat.

[Maester]

I just came off job, so will be a bit mean...

2Hao Yu
The reasons behind the math of tabletops autocanons is fairly well given in the manual, and if you add to this that it was never intended for FPS environment, it is preety much logical (the Kartr mentioned the reasoning in his post). So if you have not read the rules, then why open your mouth? Go lurk more!
As for the problem, yes it is there - when you just apply rules from tabeltop to new environments it will look illogical, which is basicaly what was done in the previous installments of Mechwarrior games. If you have ideas how to implement the balance behind those rules in a new way - dont hold back.

2Kartr
Although I consider your post reasonable, I would disagree with your take on the operation of fusion engine. Sticking to the sought that if fusion engine is intakt it not only generates zero waste heat, it also can eat some of the waste heat from other systems... is sustained by the rules on Heat Sinks which allow up to 16 (based on the rating of engine) to be placed "into" the reactor. The book says that those feed the heat back into the core (if someone can, please, quote this paragraph).
The heat we get on our hands by running around (all the mooving) is generated by the myomers which need high current to operate while having high ohmic resistance (which also can be quotated from the rule book). So it makes them into a good tubular heating element.
For the other points...
Your explanation on heat sinks is very good:) I always wondered how a radiator would help you in vacuum, so unless you have some matter to evaporate on you your mech is limited to those sinks on your reactor. There are those experimental laser heat sinks, but they are well ahead of our timeline here (but I would have given some to behold an overheated jade phalcon with partial wings and those).
As an offtopic...
I would also disagree with the list of realistic settings (if we drop the term realistic for a more soft "plausible"): star trek's "tech" is way more plausible then swars, even more so if we overlook all those things that made it in due to film budget issues. And here in BTT we dont have those film issues, although some authors did some worsening:) And for the magic and all... pahhh. Just drop it:)

2All
For the part on the radiation - well if you travel the stars this must not be any difficult to shield "little" reator, for if you leave the Earthes natural magentic and ion shields you get into the realm of radiation levels high enough to make even blown fissin reactor cower in fear so to speak. All those sattelites and space station you might feel very proud of operate inside the protected radius, and the moon missions were planned so the Earth would be shadowing the craft from the Sun all the time, and crossed their fingers not to get caught in the "star wind".

P.S.
I am not posting for those who niether have slightest understanding of science, nor have read the rulebooks of the Battle Tech series. If your experience of BTT comes only from playing PC titles, then you should lurk and learn, not speak! It is my "humble" opinion:)

[Killashnikov]

Kartr, on 10 April 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Sun burns are created by UV radiation not radient heat from the sun. Heat is not radiation, heat is the amount of energy a molecule or large group of molecules contains. Temperature is a measure of the energy being transferred from one molecule to another molecule. Radient heat (the heat you feel coming off a hot stove top) is simply the transfer of energy from the heating element to the molecules in the air to your hand. Without any molecules, such as in a vaccuum, there can be no transfer of "heat" because there is nothing for the energy to move into. So vaccuum makes a very poor coolant as there can be no transfer of heat without molecules.

Actually I am sorry to say you have this slightly wrong. Temperature is the measure of heat energy stored in a substance. Not its rate of transfer. Heat is a form of energy which is the kinetic energy of individual molecules moving in a substance.
As temperature increaces the kinetic energy of the molecules increaces. These molecules in turn convert this energy to radiation which they emit as light in direct proportion to their temperature. As the temperature increaces both the amount of radiation and the peak frequency of the light given off increaces.
At room temperatures these frequencies of light given off are below visible light in the infra red range.
As temperature increaces to around 500C the light becomes visible and substances glow "red hot".
As this increaces still further the light given off becomes brighter and whiter (incandescent light globes).
Sufficiently hot objects such as the corona of our sun and plasma give off light above visible spectrums - Ultra Violet. Taken to extremes, such as in nuclear detonations, the temperatures get high enough to give off x-rays and gamma rays.
In a vacuum, hot objects can radiate away massive amounts of heat as light.
In fact a house fire can induce fires in other objects at quite some distance, despite almost all of the conducted energy travelling straight up. In nuclear explosions, the light given off by the chain reaction can light fires several kilometers away well before the blast front reaches the same point.

In practice, on earth, in an atmosphere, most heat sink systems are designed to operate at low temperatures using primarily conduction/convection to remove heat.

In theory however there is no reason that a heat sink system could not be designed to concentrate sufficient heat in a radiator fin to allow heat to be lost through radiation out into a vacuum.

Laser heat sinks have been proposed which convert heat to light which is chanelled out as a laser beam.

It would make far more sense though to channel this heat back into the reactor for conversion back into electrical power.

There are also substances which are able to convert heat directly into electricity. Most modern electrical thermometers use this property to measure temperature. Clothing has been proposed which could charge your phone using the temperature difference between your body and the environment.

Lets be honest, even today there are many ways to make heat sinks work in a vacuum, and this game is set in a future where a fusion reactor can weigh half a ton...
Is it a detailed simulation? no. But as a shorthand system to explain a technology which does not exist it works ok.

Edited by Killashnikov, 10 April 2012 - 05:47 AM.