48 replies to this topic

[Krondor]

Corpse Grinder, on 02 November 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

LOL How would the P2W accusations rise? Since the DHS are available to literally everyone who plays the game.

People are already crying that:

LRMs are P2W (ammo costs)
XL engines are P2W (repair & purchase cost)
FF is P2W (repair and purchase cost)
Heavy or Assaults with any of the above are P2W (buy/rearm/repair cost)

So yea, why not DHS too?

I've been in quite a few betas, but I don't think I've ever seen as many QQ threads -especially on features not even in the game yet- as I do for MWO.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Quote

PGI will monitor DHS' closely and tune this number up or down depending on the telemetry data received from production servers.

The problem with this is that your telemetry data will be skewed by the restriction. If you want honest results, start at the unrestricted value and allow us to use the mech builds which result. Then you have real telemetry data with which to make an informed opinion. What are you going to do when Clan builds start hitting which are based on the 2 value? I honestly don't understand what the reservation is.

I'm a supporter, but so far every one of these major issues seems to have been handled the wrong way first until we either made enough noise and generated enough negative feedback to get things righted.

Give us the real DHS value and let us tell you whether or not we think it's too much. You might be surprised.

Real DHS were the last hope for Assualts to run actual Assualt builds instead of running heavy/medium builds. A well rounded loadout utilizing mostly large weapons types (big AC's and Energy) is currently not possible because you can't manage the heat.

Edited by Bubba Wilkins, 02 November 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[Marzepans]

This is how DHS were described by the Dev team before their broken implementation:

Quote

First, let’s take a look at a Standard Heat Sink. It’s a pretty basic piece of equipment that weighs 1 ton, occupies 1 critical slot. Each Standard Heat Sink equipped on your Mech cools it by 0.1 heat/sec and increases the maximum heat threshold before you shut down by 1.

A Double Heat Sink also weighs 1 ton, but it occupies 3 critical slots. This means that you’re unable to fit them in a Mech’s head, center torso, or legs. The upside is that each one cools your Mech by 0.2 heat/sec and increases your maximum heat capacity by 2.

What we are actually getting is .14 heat/sec and an increase to your shutdown threashold of 1.4

[BigTaeng]

You guys have not even tested the new values yet. You are only looking at napkin math and not taking into account weapon recycle rate and other factors. They internally tested heat sinks at 2.0 and realized that heat management was no longer a concern. So they lowered it.

Give the new value a chance before complaining just because the new number is not the 2.0 you were expecting. The patch has not even hit the server yet and already there are multiple QQ threads about the same subject.

[Lord Bear]

I'll see how it goes, but I have a feeling that my 'main' mech (that I paid real money for, not to mention grinding out 1.5M cbills for the 'upgrade') has just been cut off at the knees.

Edited by Lord Bear, 02 November 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

No one sees how ridiculously overpowered Double Heat Sinks would be with the fixed engine heat sinks if they kept the 2.0 value? No one? If they kept that you'd see accusations of "Pay 2 win" rise even more.

No, because it's not OP.
It means that an atlas won't run 4 medium lasers and a gauss, but a PPC, two large, and some other ballistic. That's why they 'invented' doubles in the first place.

To open up more guns to more mechs.

[Kunae]

BigTaeng, on 02 November 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

You guys have not even tested the new values yet. You are only looking at napkin math and not taking into account weapon recycle rate and other factors. They internally tested heat sinks at 2.0 and realized that heat management was no longer a concern. So they lowered it.

Give the new value a chance before complaining just because the new number is not the 2.0 you were expecting. The patch has not even hit the server yet and already there are multiple QQ threads about the same subject.

No.

Their "internal testing" has proven itself to be unreliable on major, and obvious to the community within 10 mins after patch, issues.

They missed the original DHS bug that prompted this "fix". Everyone will get more reliable and accurate information if they are put at 2.0 and monitored from there.

Oh, btw Devs...

DHS and SHS are not supposed to be "balanced".

[Viper69]

Blackfire1, on 02 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

2.0 takes a mech that has 20 heat sinks. And gives them 40. Yea.... NO. This was smart on PGI's part.

/thread

No all it does is increase the disparity of mechs toting lasers/ACs compared to Gauss weapons. Right now there is litterally zero incentive barring ammo to use anything but a Gauss rifle. DHS would have made AC builds more viable as well, not just energy based mechs. The Jeagermech would have benefited greatly from DHS at full capacity, as it is they will be very limited on how many they can use.

[Vassago Rain]

Blackfire1, on 02 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Um..... Here



2.0 takes a mech that has 20 heat sinks. And gives them 40. Yea.... NO. This was smart on PGI's part.

/thread

Not really. The 20 heat mech will have like 2 lasers, an AC, and maybe a small missile pack. It's okay to have 20 heat with this arsenal.
The 40 heat mech will have two braces of little lasers, a big, special AC, missilepods, secondary streaks, targeting computers... The devs don't know their own game, and you don't, either.

[Divine Madcat]

I love how some people are so quick to trust the internal testers, even though they missed bugs like the game not closing properly (which effected everyone..). Sorry testers, but so many bugs make it through at this point, i think you are about as real as old St. Nick...

[AlexEss]

Ahem....

Just saying...

[wanderer]

Blackfire1, on 02 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

2.0 takes a mech that has 20 heat sinks. And gives them 40. Yea.... NO. This was smart on PGI's part.

/thread

That would imply one can FIT 20 DHS on a chassis without trying.

Let's take your average 300-engine rated heavy with 20 SHS. He's fitting 8 HS on the 'Mech somewhere, consuming a whopping 24 critical spaces vs the 8 he would have before.

Best case scenario, each arm will take two (three if it's missing an actuator), each side torso 4 (and have no room for anything else). Considering you do have to mount other stuff in there, that 24 crit spaces gets to be awful cramping, real fast. You're more likely to mount fewer sinks, get some better heat sinkage, and find someplace to use the difference in saved tonnage.

My Atlas-RS didn't go from 28-29 HS to effectively 56-58 with DHS- it now mounts 17 DHS, which should have been 34 SHS but is in effect about 24 SHS with the 1.4 cooling rate. Oops. I'd have to mount twenty DHS to get my old cooling rate with SHS.

Twenty DHS don't FIT in my Atlas. That's just plain screwed up.

[Kunae]

AlexEss, on 02 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Ahem....

Just saying...

Nope. They're not letting us test what we should be testing.

If they don't like the dps after putting in 2.0 DHS, then they should tweak the weapons.

[Kraven Kor]

Blackfire1, on 02 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Um..... Here



2.0 takes a mech that has 20 heat sinks. And gives them 40. Yea.... NO. This was smart on PGI's part.

/thread

You almost cannot get to 20 DHS on an Inner Sphere mech.

With any weaponry at all, you can at best have three in each torso and two in each arm. More than likely most medium or larger builds can fit 2 in all for a total of 18 DHS.

Most heavy weapons builds can't fit more than a handful of DHS outside engine.

I'll test it either way, but yeah... Double Heat Sinks should be, well, double.

[Mylar]

Uhm.... Yeah, Double Heat sinks make energy boats crazy powerful.
Double heat sinks make a lot of mech builds no worry about heat at all...

Newsflash from 1990!

They did the same thing to tabletop.
After the 3050 era people designed mechs to NOT HEAT UP, like at all. You had enough heat sinks that you did not have to even calculate heat untill you took an engine hit or something.

The PPC was the standard go-to weapon of choice in tabletop, here it is worthless.

Double heat sinks drop DOUBLE the heat. Yes, that means the starting point, without adding anything, is 20 heat drop just from the base 10. Deal with it. We did in tabletop. Not all mechs had to worry about heat. Not all mechs SHOULD have to worry about heat. If you want mechs to worry about heat again after double heat sinks, buff flamers, add infernos, and let us set forests and buildings on fire.

[Vassago Rain]

Mylar, on 02 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Uhm.... Yeah, Double Heat sinks make energy boats crazy powerful.
Double heat sinks make a lot of mech builds no worry about heat at all...

Newsflash from 1990!

They did the same thing to tabletop.
After the 3050 era people designed mechs to NOT HEAT UP, like at all. You had enough heat sinks that you did not have to even calculate heat untill you took an engine hit or something.

The PPC was the standard go-to weapon of choice in tabletop, here it is worthless.

Double heat sinks drop DOUBLE the heat. Yes, that means the starting point, without adding anything, is 20 heat drop just from the base 10. Deal with it. We did in tabletop. Not all mechs had to worry about heat. Not all mechs SHOULD have to worry about heat. If you want mechs to worry about heat again after double heat sinks, buff flamers, add infernos, and let us set forests and buildings on fire.

Mechs don't heat up with standard sinks, either, as long as you play 'stock.' That's because they're designed to do that, with their 3 guns, and maybe one 'cool thing' they can do.

But this wasn't fun in the long run, so they made special sinks that doubled what you could do, which meant mechs could now carry more weapons, and do more things in general.

The devs don't understand their own game. They have zero clue what they're doing, and are dooming us to yet another patch cycle of gauss vs streakcats.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Double Heat Sinks seem right at 1.4 if that is where the are at. I don't need Large Laser boat assault mechs roaming around. Like that sounds fun

[Devils Advocate]

AlexEss, on 02 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Ahem....

Just saying...

I bought in-game currency. They explained to me that DHS would act as double heat sinks. Using this information I purchased two awesomes and decked them out. They are now explaining that DHS was a mistake and should be nerfed, and my builds are both losing efficiency. Gauss rifles are gaining efficiency. Actually, Gauss PPC snipers will be the ultimate weapons with their awesome engines, and I'm absolutely tired of fielding one to stay competitive. People are spending cash money on misinformation and while that sounds dramatic look back at Garth posting about the double heat sinks originally. They were always supposed to be double, and if we were beta testing we'd be testing that out right now, but instead all we find is that they are relying on an inconsistent internal team for values who are either missing or not communicating errors in their math. The result is that the developers tell us how things are supposed to work and then come back two weeks later going "AS ANTICIPATED, THIS WORKED TOO WELL, SO WE NERFED IT." Well if you anticipated that why the **** didn't you tell us that before? Why were we all still waiting on functional double heat sinks?

Edited by Devils Advocate, 02 November 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[wanderer]

Mylar, on 02 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Double heat sinks drop DOUBLE the heat. Yes, that means the starting point, without adding anything, is 20 heat drop just from the base 10. Deal with it. We did in tabletop. Not all mechs had to worry about heat. Not all mechs SHOULD have to worry about heat. If you want mechs to worry about heat again after double heat sinks, buff flamers, add infernos, and let us set forests and buildings on fire.

He's got a point. DHS working at TT rates mean you can un-nerf the flamer and add inferno SRM rounds without tearing your collective dev-hair out at the roots and still let people have fun with latent pyromaniacal tendencies.

[AlexEss]

What we should be testing is what what they tell us to test... That is how a beta works.

And honestly explain to me what the difference is between starting a 1.4 and working your way up... adn starting at 2.0 and working your way down apart form the fact that the top to bottom version becomes less and less reliable for every nerf you get as less and less people care to invest in the testing unlike the bottom to top that should see the opposite pattern due to people always wanting to be as competitive as they can.

Feel free to explain to me if i am wrong.. but i want numbers and examples if you do. Because my example is something learnt through a series of fairly boring university lectures.