155 replies to this topic

[Viper69]

Shakespeare, on 02 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

How about we actually drop with it before wailing and whining?

Are they going to let us test them for free or let us sell them back at full price? I doubt it. I was going to click "start premium counter" at the patch, as it stands now this update makes no sense mathematically. We have no choice but to wait anyway.

[Adrienne Vorton]

call them "improved standard heatsinks"...and add double later if you want... oh wait...they´d be called "ISHS"...sounds familiar ...O.O

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 02 November 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[Viper69]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Pretty much yes.

So there is a range where the DHS is more effective than the SHS and a range where the SHS is more effective than the DHS.

I see no problem with this except for people claiming that it's against TT because 'DHS is supposed to be better than SHS in every single way'.

Exactly, why follow tt rules for part of the item, its weight and crit space but change how it works? See its half assed house rules that irritate me.

Why not give guass rifles heat to offset their massive over use if they are afraid of lasers being over used. Oh no cant do that because they dont make heat according to the rules. Use all the rules or none but dont pick and choose what is convenient for your situation or argument.

[Krivvan]

Viper69, on 02 November 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Exactly, why follow tt rules for part of the item, its weight and crit space but change how it works? See its half assed house rules that irritate me.

Why not give guass rifles heat to offset their massive over use if they are afraid of lasers being over used. Oh no cant do that because they dont make heat according to the rules. Use all the rules or none but dont pick and choose what is convenient for your situation or argument.

I don't see why they shouldn't change those values, although in my own opinion I don't think Gauss Rifles are inherently better than lasers.

Heat that is. Weight and slots are trickier to change due to construction rules. Attributes such as damage and heat do not affect builds.

Edited by Krivvan, 02 November 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[pedropars]

Seriously whats the point of getting DOUBLE heatsinks if they arent double anymore...

[IceTitan]

Why they don't just destroy everything else then, so I guess when the clan comes out they get the the actual double sinks. I guess they were too lazy to fix the damn bugs and left it as is instead. It's like they want people to stick to the stock builds, but everyone else that has creative builds. Gets shafted, guess they just like to screw with everyone. I know their trying to keep some form of balance, but balance is not by destroying the game.... seems more time goes, the game is actually becoming less and less MechWarrior and more and more PGI slap in face ego trip. No more money going in this game that's for certain, hopefully it'll die within the year for their stupidity and ignorance towards the point of the damn game.

[DerMaulwurf]

Well, the only thing I'm sure of is that the devs don't know what "exponentially" means. Because pretending to see a proportionality from two data points is moronic.

Well, it's my own fault, that I gave them the money in advance, but at least I'm no longer tempted to spend more.

Rest in peace poor PPC-CAT. I hardly knew you.

[Ansel]

BigJim, on 02 November 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Because of all the 1.4 Children®, that's why.
They are so clever that they know things that haven't even happened yet. I'm fair-impressed oh yes I am.
I spent all day today building a kick-*** new Hunchback build but then a calculator came along and killed me in a single alpha.

Calculators are OP, nerf calculators.

A calculator isn't a Stalker STK-3F with 6xML + 4xSRM6, that will kill a hunchback at 90-100 meter ranges in one shot.

[Vassago Rain]

They should be poorsinks.
Then they can roll out clansinks, aka goldsinks, later, that cost 50 cents each.

[Synra]

I am normally very positive thinking around here. When the devs decide to make a change to a fundamental system, I try to see their point of view and reasoning behind that change. And I generally find their logic to be sound.

However, in this case there is simply no excuse for this. It's not a double heatsink if it isn't double. If it isn't 2.0 heat per heatsink, then it's just not what it's supposed to be.

If the devs have found a balance issue with double heatsinks I would believe that the problem is primarily rooted in numerous other changes that they have made up to this point:

- Weapon damage and heat generation is not operating on a 10 sec scale like they are meant to.

- Your heat guage is not operating on a 30 point scale like it's supposed to.

- Mech armor is doubled.

- LRMs do 1.7 damage per missile instead of the 1.0 they are intended to do.

- and so on...

The devs already have damage and heat pretty thuroughly screwed up to begin with. It should be no surprise that throwing in double heatsinks creates some kind of extreme balance problem.

This whole 1.4 DHS fiasco is a big indicator the devs need to bring the game more in line with TT values. Put armor back to the way it's meant to be. Set weapon stats based on a 10 second period. For example a PPC should do 10 damage and generate 10 heat per 10 seconds worth of firing. If PPCs have a 3 sec cooldown, then they should be doing 3 damage and 3 heat each time you fire it.

I know this sounds like a massive nerf to damage output, but this is why armor should return to normal values. The heat scale needs to be fixed as well. 30 heat should be the shutdown point. If your mech has 10 standard heatsinks, it should dissipate 10 heat over the course of 10 seconds. If it has double heatsinks, it should dissipate 20 heat over 10 seconds.

MWO would make a lot more sense this way and probably be more balanced. If after making all of these changes DHS are still better... well they are supposed to be! Don't nerf something that's meant to be clearly better. If you want to mitigate players using the better heatsinks, then that is what economy is for. Make them costly to repair. Make players think twice about building a powerful (expensive) mech, but don't prevent them from doing it. The economy is a little off topic, but right now repair bills are a joke and that needs to be fixed.

If you are willing to nerf something so simple as double heatsinks by such a massive amount, what will you do when clan equipment shows up someday? Nerf it also down to 70% of it's intended effectiveness in another sloppy attempt at balance?

I am sorry, but there is no excuse for this. As I said, I have stood by the devs in the past, but their messing with stats is starting to get way out of control if double heatsinks are being set to 1.4 heat. It is definately time for the devs to step back and look at what exactly they really have in front of them. The numbers are way too screwed up across the board.

The idea of 'we will start with tabletop values and then beat them into the ground with a sledgehammer" isn't working so well as they think.

Edited by Synra, 02 November 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Viper69]

How about just make them take 2 crit slots and say that is why they are called "double heat sinks". Then they keep the name and it makes sense to non table top folk and the 1.4 makes a little more sense at two crit slots.

Edit: the only stcky point is clan tech. In that case we will have to get ready for a whole lot of house rules then.

Edited by Viper69, 02 November 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[Denin]

Its called game balance and its not set in stone. They apparently saw some builds become so OP that to keep game balance they had to use a different value for double heat sinks than battletech canon. I love battletech, but this game has a different heat system. Game balance trumps battletech faithfulness any day of the week.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Salient, on 02 November 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...heat-sinks-dhs/

DHS being nerfed to 1.4 , i dunno bout the rest of you, but it makes all my pulse laser fits real sad. Being that DHS isnt much of any upgrade anymore, I think the cost should be droped in line with endo steel.

so they ARE dropping the idea that they were gonna make it as in lione with TT as tey can then. NON double, souble heat sinks is a slap in the face to TT.

I kinda see why they waited till after OB to release the stuff

[Hellcat420]

the more they cherry pick rules to apply to this game from tabletop, and change things from tt, the less i want to play this game=(

[siLve00]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Pretty much yes.

So there is a range where the DHS is more effective than the SHS and a range where the SHS is more effective than the DHS.

I see no problem with this except for people claiming that it's against TT because 'DHS is supposed to be better than SHS in every single way'.

thanks....
since i played TT along time ago ( a very long time ago ! ) i cant realy remember all the "old" setups.
i see the problems.. but i realy have to say.. this isnt TT. Its MW:O and ppl should use the stuff they getting from PGI.
New game new rules... thats it.

aslong they change the engine hs to 1.4 too.. iam fine with it.
all my loadouts will work better with it...
sure the ammo loadouts will not be that great.. but still a lil bit better.my laserboat will be affected way more.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Denin, on 02 November 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Its called game balance and its not set in stone. They apparently saw some builds become so OP that to keep game balance they had to use a different value for double heat sinks than battletech canon. I love battletech, but this game has a different heat system. Game balance trumps battletech faithfulness any day of the week.

Then dont call it battletech/mechwarrior if youre gonna throw out the rules.
"random mecha online" is what we're getting. Starting to agree with the guy that said it wouldf be "battletech flavored" if you did stuff like this.

Hellcat420, on 02 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

the more they cherry pick rules to apply to this game from tabletop, and change things from tt, the less i want to play this game=(

agreed

and whered the last forum go? I cant find my thread on this anymore

[Allekai]

i guess they won't be doubles any more.. so the new name fits I say.. or just call them "massive waste of space and c-bills don't bother upgrade" MWSCDBU for short.. "yes i dropped the of and and"

Edited by Allekai, 02 November 2012 - 05:05 PM.

[Phelan Ward-Kell]

NamesAreStupid, on 02 November 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

To all saying it's not bad, take a look at my graphs
http://mwomercs.com/...ines-100245300/

Thanks for this. I'm a visual kinda guy, so seeing the graphs both saves me the hassle of making my own and gives me some visual comparisons.


Addendum: I've been running a CN9-AL the past 2 days with 2 SPL, 1LLas, 2 SSRMs and the amount I've been able to non-stop fire on Caustic Valley is kind of obscene. That's without the engine HS being fixed.

I want this game to stay as true as possible to CBT, but I've known since day 1 that things would change, because a turn-based table top game just does not translate 1:1 into a digital simulator game.

We need to understand that PGI is keeping all of this in mind, and will adjust where necessary. As this game is still beta, we shouldn't be complaining on the forums. We should be sending the feedback to PGI so it's logged in their ticket system
^This is key, because it is easier for them to get real-world numbers as to what our collective opinions are.

Edited by The Phigment, 02 November 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

siLve00, on 02 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

thanks....
since i played TT along time ago ( a very long time ago ! ) i cant realy remember all the "old" setups.
i see the problems.. but i realy have to say.. this isnt TT. Its MW:O and ppl should use the stuff they getting from PGI.
New game new rules... thats it.

aslong they change the engine hs to 1.4 too.. iam fine with it.
all my loadouts will work better with it...
sure the ammo loadouts will not be that great.. but still a lil bit better.my laserboat will be affected way more.

In a thread earlier tats lost I said they should totally do this and was flamed for it for about 8 pages before it settled down lol

All Im saying is chuck the tables OR stick to them. Quit this BS pick and choose crap.
Im starting to get a scared feeling as to what the Clan stuff is gonna look like

"slightly more improved clan heat sicks" 1.6

ugh

[QuantumButler]

No the proposed DHS nerf is the worst decision they have made since going open beta with the game in such a sorry, unready state.