98 replies to this topic

[Tastian]

TT heat was based on 10 second single firing. Keep the heat generation as it is. Make DHS 2.0. And then decrease the rate of fire of every weapon across the board. Make Gauss, PPC, ERPPC, LRMs and other large weapons closer to 10 seconds. Make medium and small weapons 6 to 8 seconds. Small Lasers and Gauss won't rule the battlefield. PPC will be viable again.

[Balsover]

Tastian, on 02 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

TT heat was based on 10 second single firing. Keep the heat generation as it is. Make DHS 2.0. And then decrease the rate of fire of every weapon across the board. Make Gauss, PPC, ERPPC, LRMs and other large weapons closer to 10 seconds. Make medium and small weapons 6 to 8 seconds. Small Lasers and Gauss won't rule the battlefield. PPC will be viable again.

I think slower firing rates would make the game far more tactical. Just like tabletop, you fire your shots, have a few seconds to move and get a new firing location, then fire again. Too much run and gun, pew pew pew every few seconds is just leading to the circle straffing combat we have now, its kinda boring.

[Ghosth]

PGI you guys make it really really hard to love you guys.

I really thought after some of the mistakes you made prior to Open Beta that perhaps you were starting to listen and learn from your mistakes but this one takes the cake.

I "Knew" when you refused to balance heat back in closed beta but insisted on waiting for DHS that this day was coming.
Now your not even willing to give us full DHS. No its going to be 1.5 million cbills for 1.4 heat instead of 1. You foolish foolish people. You never even gave us full working DHS for a single week to test it across a wide variety of builds.


Trial mech's should be your gold standard, and should be what are used for testing. That includes the stock K2 with 2 PPC's and the Awesome. If heat is broken for those builds, it is broken for ALL builds. And you can't stand there and tell me those mech's don't run hot. Those builds are the ones that every new player to this community are going to use. And you guys really think they are ok?

You guys are absolutely beyond belief if you think this community will continue to stand for that kind of thinking.

You want to get away from TT values, fine, lose the name. You want the name, then by all that is holy keep it close to those values. You can't have it both ways and keep the old Mechwarrior fans, you know, the ones with deep pockets.

Edited by Ghosth, 02 November 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[valrond]

Ghosth, on 02 November 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

PGI you guys make it really really hard to love you guys.

I really thought after some of the mistakes you made prior to Open Beta that perhaps you were starting to listen and learn from your mistakes but this one takes the cake.

I "Knew" when you refused to balance heat back in closed beta but insisted on waiting for DHS that this day was coming.
Now your not even willing to give us full DHS. No its going to be 1.5 million cbills for 1.4 heat instead of 1. You foolish foolish people. You never even gave us full working DHS for a single week to test it across a wide variety of builds.


Trial mech's should be your gold standard, and should be what are used for testing. That includes the stock K2 with 2 PPC's and the Awesome. If heat is broken for those builds, it is broken for ALL builds. And you can't stand there and tell me those mech's don't run hot. Those builds are the ones that every new player to this community are going to use. And you guys really think they are ok?

You guys are absolutely beyond belief if you think this community will continue to stand for that kind of thinking.

You want to get away from TT values, fine, lose the name. You want the name, then by all that is holy keep it close to those values. You can't have it both ways and keep the old Mechwarrior fans, you know, the ones with deep pockets.

What you said. I doubt these guys even passed Primary Maths.
Look at these examples:
Double the armor -> 1.20x ammo (later 1.40x ammo)
Triple the rate of fire -> Keep the heat dissipation the same (taking out any tonnage balance the weapons had)
Double heatsinks = 1.4x HS effectiveness.

Every time I think about this, I just think they took the name to grab a ton of cash (over 5 million, and they have just 4 small maps and like 16 mechs), make a crappy game, and run with the money.

[Dethl0k]

can they screw laser users over any worse? i guess they want everyone using a guass cat

[Cid]

QuantumButler, on 02 November 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Dammit PGI, I want to have faith in you, but all your awful decisions are making it impossible.

this is exactly how i feel as well 8(

[Kalit]

To the people complaining about stock mechs and saying that stock variants should not overheat with one or two alphas..

I'm assuming you have never played Battletech, 3025 or before almost all stock mechs with serious weapons had severe heat problems. We were playing with level 1 tech, now I'd say we're at level 1.5 tech. Also, some seem to be comparing their previous game experience with Clan tech and thinking it should apply to the current tech in MWO.

We have nothing but mostly old Inner Sphere tech right now with a few new advancements being made.

[Noth]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

But I'm basing most of my argument on the fact that the math doesn't find DHS useless in all situations. It finds it useless when you use more than 7 of them. If one can gain any sort of advantage by getting them in some situation, someone will get them and they won't be useless, even if niche.

What I want is a system where both SHS and DHS have situations where they can be more effective than the other.

If they are to be useful in different situations, then it shouldn't cost anything to switch between them. Instead we pay nearly the cost of a light mech for a small boost in some mechs and a flat nerf in other mechs. Look at Endo and FF. Those two are straight up bonuses and cost less. Some thing are supposed to be upgrades, not side grades. DHS are one of those things just like endo and FF.

[Nasty McBadman]

If firing cycles were longer across the board we probably would have less people constantly alpha striking. People might actually try to fire different weapons at different times to keep damage output more constant. Maybe 10 seconds would be a "little" too long for all weapons but for the big ones it could be good. Also I wish people would be more tolerant to the game developers attempts to find balance. Let them try things with the people in beta and see if they work or not. All of this extreme reaction to every little thing even before it happens seems absurd. I have been playing Battle-tech in myriad forms for most of my life so I know what it means to feel strongly about the issues but jeeze, give the developers some slack, it is beta, the time to test things, the time things change often. Have some faith that the developers are looking to make a good game.

[Jack Gallows]

Most of the builds I have now will have to change as double heat sinks really aren't a benefit for the 1.4 value they're going to add in over single heat sinks. (If it stays at 1.4, PGI, drop the amount of crit space they take?) I know they may alter it in the future, and understand that quite fine, but for most of it unless they reach 1.7 or a full 2.0 they're not an option for nearly any build over a single heat sink in battlemech effectiveness.

Again, working with PGI saying they may alter the effectiveness of double heat sinks, I will continue using these current bugged Engine Heat Sinks and find what's most effective under this (which, I don't use double heat sinks right now for ANY reason,) and the future tweaked DHS (which I might use on very small select builds, but it's not likely to be often used in the long haul.)

I'm wondering what the idea is behind what's going to happen to future mech releases and designs...since every single battlemech produced after the invention of DHS have DHS and NOT single heat sinks. Every variant (save maybe...two out of thousands,) created after DHS return to the Inner Sphere mount double heat sinks and NOT single. These designs and variants are developed around the invention of DHS. Look to the Black Knight or the Flashman, laser heavy on purpose that only survive on DHS, or the base Awesome (which is in game.) Are these types of 'mechs one ones that have incredible amount of weapons/hardpoints going to be hardcapped/penalized because of how they were innately designed...when they're supposed to be effective but cannot be due to DHS changes?

I understand changes due to game balancing and that some things from tabletop must change (and you've done a few TT changes that are GREAT,) but this seems like a very bad idea to me at the current point in time. Will reserve judgement until DHS hit their final implementation, and will give the proper leeway as we're still in beta.

[Nasty McBadman]

One Idea I just thought up would be for engine "double heatsinks" to be at the 1.4 value and additional frame mounted "double heatsinks" to be the traditional 2.0 value. Any thoughts?

[Firion Corodix]

Nasty McBadman, on 03 November 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

One Idea I just thought up would be for engine "double heatsinks" to be at the 1.4 value and additional frame mounted "double heatsinks" to be the traditional 2.0 value. Any thoughts?

Sounds more reasonable then what they are about to do.
I've also got an idea, not sure if it's any good though. How about the engine heatsinks are 1.0, but for every DHS you put on your mech the engine heatsinks improve by 0.1 to a max of 2.0. So all your heatsinks would be doubles once you have at least 10 sinks besides those in the engine (tweak the 0.1 if it's to low, maybe it should be 0.15 or 0.20. or the EHS should start at 1.4 instead of 1.0). If you only had a few sinks to start with then switching to DHS wouldn't do all that much, but the really energy heavy mechs (the ones that really need it) with tons of heat sinks would get most out of it.

[BloodLegacy]

Heat is getting full rework so all bets and speculation is off.

[Vapor Trail]

BloodLegacy, on 03 November 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Heat is getting full rework so all bets and speculation is off.

Source?

[Redacted for confrontationalism]VT

Edited by Vapor Trail, 03 November 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[BloodLegacy]

The new post says the heat rework will only affect lasers.

Previous statement withdrawn.

Edited by BloodLegacy, 03 November 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[Murphy7]

Heat system rework would likely introduce the movement and firing penalties in the form of throttle reductions and slower correction of reticles and convergence. You know, because heat doesn't hurt enough yet.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kalit, on 02 November 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

To the people complaining about stock mechs and saying that stock variants should not overheat with one or two alphas..

I'm assuming you have never played Battletech, 3025 or before almost all stock mechs with serious weapons had severe heat problems. We were playing with level 1 tech, now I'd say we're at level 1.5 tech. Also, some seem to be comparing their previous game experience with Clan tech and thinking it should apply to the current tech in MWO.

We have nothing but mostly old Inner Sphere tech right now with a few new advancements being made.

Look at the example stock mechs we are actually pointing at.

Hunchback 4P: 23 heat sinks 8 medium lasers produce 24 heat. So it gains 1 heat per turn. Stationary, it would take 14 turns firing all 8 mediums for this mech to get the first shutdown chance. That's 140 second. Running, it's about 5 turns, or 50 seconds. To avoid this, firing only 7 medium lasers on every 2nd turn, it would never overheat.

Awesome 8Q: 28 heat sinks, 3 PPCs producing 30 heat. SO it gains 2 heat per turn. Stationary, it would take 7 turns firing its 3 PPCs every turn to get its first shutdown chance. That's 70 turns. Running,it's about 4 turns or 40 seconds.
If it fires only 2 PPCs every 3rd turn, it never overheats.

Jagermech: 2 AC/5, 2 AC/2, 2 Medium LAsers. Firing them all it produces 10 heat, and with 10 heat sinks, it can dissipate it all. Running,it would take 7 turns for it to overheat, that's 70 seconds. Not firing either its AC/s every 3 turns or not firing its mediums every 4 turns would be enough to never overheat.

That's the type of heat management that was not atypical for the table top.

Of course, there is also the Marauder with 16 heat sinks, 2 PPCs and an AC/5 it would fire for long range targets, gaining 5 heat every salvo. To countermant that, it would need to not fire its 2nd PPC every 3 turns. And it had more weapons, so it could gain a lot more heat.

But we actually don't have the Marauder in the game yet. We only have the Awesome and the Hunchback. They don't work anywhere close to the TT now. The Jagermech should be up next in MW:O (or is it the Cataphract?), it would overheat stationary in 6 seconds. That'S not even a table top turn.

[wanderer]

Hikyuu, on 02 November 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

consider this, DHS are made for mechs that may not be able to afford the tonnage for necessary heat dispersion. it is not meant to replace Heatsinks at all (else every mech in history would have used them!). they are just more effective, much more complex, and bulkier heatsinks that are also lighter.

Post-3055, virtually every design that isn't made by a faction incapable of making DHS...uses DHS. We're talking 99% or so here. TRO 3055, virtually every 'Mech over 35 tons has DHS installed to handle the higher heat loads of Clan-era weaponry- at a point that DHS are still relatively uncommon only in a few places (like Kurita) By TRO 3075, that changes to literally every modern-tech 'Mech mounting them. Quite simply, the DHS becomes the modern standard and is clearly (in 99.9% of existing designs post reintroduction of the DHS) the superior choice. There is no "tradeoff" worth mentioning. DHS >> SHS.

DHS were never designed to be a "sidegrade"- they are, pure and simple the heat sink of the future. The basic 'Mech of the post-Clan era starts with the equivalent of 20 SHS and their sinks get rid of twice the heat of their predecessors. The single heatsink is like trying to bring an old prop-powered Zero into a dogfight with F-4 Phantoms and expecting that somehow, there should be comparable performance.

They actually WERE designed to replace single heat sinks. Entirely.

[TigrisMorte]

Dakkath, on 02 November 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

What's that got to do with anything related to what I was commenting on? Gauss was and still is needing to be tweaked, before and after the DHS adjustment.

wrong, Gauss is right. No nerf needed. Everything else is total garbage only on the mech because you can't load more gauss and and don't need more ammo for what you got. So, how do they address that? They make them out of glass so if you accept the fact the, now that LRMs and SRMs are junk thanks to another nerf or renerf in LRM case, gauss is the only weapon worth its tonnage you end up wiht no weapons if you're hit by otherwise pointless MG
It suxor so bad that my Battledroid box audibly laughs every time I start the client.