105 replies to this topic

[Bubba Wilkins]

Enough threads exist now that another discussion thread would serve no purpose. But I'll throw a poll up anyways in the hopes that PGI gets the hint.

[Tennex]

not that big of a deal. IMO it just means that PGI is diong something to balance the game. Its so much better than "everything has to be TT and canon"

cuz it makes a working game in the end.

[Tehtos]

Yes, they are trying to balance the game. Wait, was double unbalanced? We don't really know if it was unbalanced, do we? I sure haven't tested any builds with real double heat sinks. I've only used the broken double heat sinks.

[DeathofSelf]

Here is a crazy thought, how about we wait and see exactly how the game will play after they make the changes.

[Rifter]

They are changing them to real double heatsinks are they not? I thought it was a glitch and it was found and will be fixed with the patch on the 6th.

[MCXL]

"Fixed a bug where DHS where Engine Heat Sinks were not be converted to DHS.

Single Heat Sink = 1.0
Double Heat Sink = 1.4

After fixing the EHS bug, and setting DHS to a cannon value of 2.0, we experienced anticipated result. Heat was no longer a concern, increasing DPS exponentially on certain types of mech loadouts.

After testing a variety of standard builds, we settled on 1.4. This value maintains the spirit of both DHS and maintains the integrity of MWO's overall gameplay experience. PGI will monitor DHS' closely and tune this number up or down depending on the telemetry data received from production servers.

Heat Bug Testing revealed a long standing issue with how heat was calculated for some weapons. Total Generated was used as Heat Per Second.

The fix now calculates Heat Per Second based on Total Generated Heat. This affects Small, Medium, Large Pulses Laser, and Small Lasers. They will now produce more heat when fired and work as originally intended.

Fixes for both issues will be in the November 6th Patch"

Edited by MCXL, 02 November 2012 - 12:50 PM.

[Kushko]

Fiddling around with some Assault mech theorycrafting it would appear that 1.4 double heat sinks would be worse than single heat sinks in every possible situation.

For example on a RS Atlas with 2x large lasers per arm could fit 22 DHS (10+12 in a 300 engine) before running out of space which would translate in to 30.8. On the other hand with SHS i could fit aprox 37 before running out of weight. Even if i fit only 1 large laser per arm and NOTHING ELSE i would only have the space for 2 more DHS (24) which would translate in to 33.6, and again with SHS i would free up 10 more tons which would mean 47 SHS.

If DHS value were 2.0 as intended than 22DHS would be 44 as apposed to 37 from SHS and in the 2nd situation 48 vs 47. OP? No not really, just slightly better and perhaps worth the 1.5mil to actually fit them.

1.4 is bad and to be perfectly honest im shocked at how bad PGI testers are at balancing the game. The fact that they didnt notice that DHS were bugged in the first place leads me to believe that their either incompetent or are using gausscats and nothing else, balancing and bugfinding the game around that.

Edited by Kushko, 02 November 2012 - 01:00 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

i see why they went with the 1.4 as a straight up 2.0 dissipation would make mech like your laser boats that much worse. But at just a 1.4 dissipation they can no longer be called double heat sinks and should maybe just be called Advanced Heat Sinks for the sake of this game. And I do feel 3 critical slots is a bit much for just 1.4 dissipation. If they lowered the crit slots to 2 at 1 ton with 1.4 dissipation, i think that would be a great even ground between PGI and the gamers.

[Blackfire1]

Um.. no.

1.4 is fine. Why? Doubl heat sinks didn't negate Heat totally. only doubled the ratio. 2.0 would kill heat totally. Make it like a No heat server.

So NO. No 2.0

[Balsover]

They are adjusting the wrong thing. Because weapons are all out of whack balance wise, instead of fixing weapon balance they are starting to implement weird changes that don't make any sense. Fix the root of the problem, don't change things around the problem.

[AlexEss]

i wonder.. are the people who wanr DHs also lobbying for a 10 sec recycle timer... For that would be funny.

[MCXL]

They just need to half all heat numbers from weapons, or double all cooling, and work from there.

As it stands now stock mechs all have serious heat dissipation problems, making smaller, and lower heat weapons better.

This has been documented several times, that generally speaking the math of heat now is ******* awful. The reason people were looking forward to DHS so much was because it would make builds that should work well with SHS actually viable in some way. This change has 100% turned me off from the game.


And beore someone calls me a TT purist, I have NEVER, NOT ONCE PLAYED THE TT. What I know I learned from math, and from my experiences with this game. As it stands now, running a 10 HS mech is outrageous in how slow heat comes down to how quickly it goes up, even using the smallest, lowest heat weapons. The only mech that can run like that currently and be 100% effective is a Gauss based platform (Gausscat, or Gauss only Cicada, Raven, etc etc.)

As it stands, many, if not all of the original stock variants, are inferior to where they should be.

If I could get a refund for my founders package at this point, I would be seriously considering it. At this point I won't be playing the game on a regular basis anymore.

I really wish Paul would actually talk to the community in a real way like Morello does with league.

If PGI wants to make a different game then we want, we should be told why. I don't want answers like "some builds were Op" I want to know what THEY WANT to be a viable build in the game.

What are they looking to make effective?

If a stock Cat K variant is supposed to be an overheating mess, why don't they just come out and say so?

[Joe Mallad]

Blackfire1, on 02 November 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Um.. no.

1.4 is fine. Why? Doubl heat sinks didn't negate Heat totally. only doubled the ratio. 2.0 would kill heat totally. Make it like a No heat server.

So NO. No 2.0

i agree but asking people to spend 1.5 mil on them when they dont do as they say and then with mech like large and assaults... these heat sinks at 1.4 dissipation and taking up 3 times the amount of internal space is in most cases not worth it at all. Keep them at 1.4 and 1 ton but have then only take 2 crit slots and not 3 and watch how fast people stop complaining.

[Kobold]

I understand why they are making the change they are, but I disagree with it vehemently.

[ On Large Energy Weapons ]

Heavy energy weapons were already being eschewed by most players, and have been for months. The only mechs I ever see successfully using large lasers are Atlases who have lots of space for heat sinks but very few energy hard points. Any medium or light mech with a large laser or PPC is basically laughed at. The most effective heavies use gauss, missiles of some kind, or again medium lasers (combined with gauss or missiles).

The biggest "problem" with the gauss cat is that the increased rate of fire of the MWO gameplay without a commensurate heat dissipation increase meant that low heat weapons got the biggest boost. DHS was supposed to "fix" this aberrant situation that PGI themselves created.

[ On the nature of upgrades ]

Not everything has to be a viable alternative. Machine guns can be a waste of tonnage. Single heat sinks can be flat out worse than doubles. This is ok.

[Insidious Johnson]

It isn't a final number, they said they'd tweak it up or down after getting more data. So they will take into account how we use them. Not using them at all will skew the numbers.

[Panzagl]

Wait, the heat bug was that lasers weren't producing enough heat? A Jenner now overheats chain firing it's lasers, when it should be able to shoot 2-3 at a time without overheating. Plus you have to track the mech for a full second to do full damage?

I know in the old MW games laserboating was a problem- 9 linked medium lasers pretty much one-shotted anything, and then you just ran around until the heat dissipated. But isn't that what the hardpoint system is supposed to fix? I'd rather not be able to config mechs at all than have everything be nerfed all the time just because someone got one over on one of the dev's Gausscats.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

"we admit we can't really fix the balance of heat, autocannons, and lasers... so nerfing double heat sinks it totally fine."
Whatever they say, doesn't take remove the fact that they're botching the system left and right.

[shabowie]

Insidious Johnson, on 02 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

It isn't a final number, they said they'd tweak it up or down after getting more data. So they will take into account how we use them. Not using them at all will skew the numbers.

You will basically only see engine only DHS if they go with a 1.4 value. As soon as they start taking up critical space SHS wins, basic math.

[Dorado]

Balsover, on 02 November 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

They are adjusting the wrong thing. Because weapons are all out of whack balance wise, instead of fixing weapon balance they are starting to implement weird changes that don't make any sense. Fix the root of the problem, don't change things around the problem.

^^ This ^^.

Weapons are firing anywhere from approximately 3 times to 20 times faster than the rules they are basing the heat sink "fix" on.

[vifoxe]

Stop having a discussion! The OP said No Discussion! Stop it!