123 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

It is hoped that the "Reboot" of MWO will put the game mechanics back to there they belong after being so much abused in the previous titles as to become indistinguishable from the actual BT universe.

It irks me to think that having to wait 10 seconds to deal another 20 pts of damage is somehow so perverse to those twitch gamers that the Dev would deviate "AGAIN" from the base system.

Range, Damage and Heat all combine to make certain weapons effective. The fact that some, or many even, don't like that every time they pull the trigger an enemy doesn't insta-explode is beyond mind boggling.

Beta should allow the Dev to see how players deal with their setup, after that, tweaks may be needed but let's start at the "BASE" and work outwards and not butcher it right off, only to have to reset the whole mess due to unforeseen circumstances somewhere down the line. Please, let's keep the thought of a "REBOOT" a "reality".

Edited by MaddMaxx, 10 April 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Jake Valeck]

yes please lets play the beta before we get to far ahead of ourselves.

[Slyck]

I think the relative dps and hps between weapons should be true to TT because that is where it's been balance after decades of gameplay. By this I don't mean exact values, just as long as relative balance between weapons is kept.

I would not not be opposed to a small global reduction in dps, as this will give people the chance to act and react more strategically on the battlefield.

[Kudzu]

mwhighlander, on 09 April 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

I know a lot of you really value your TT stats and everything, but I would LOVE to see how well you do in real time with a weapon that you can only shoot once every 10 seconds. Maybe that sounded a bit harsh, but this is just a prime example of things that don't translate well from turn base to real time.

You meaning moving away from alpha-striking twitch-fests and into slugging matches where fights last longer than an eye blink, teamwork/focus firing is vital, and lights and mediums can actually use their speed to their advantage? Sign me up!

[BarHaid]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 10 April 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

The trouble with increasing the RoF for the AC20 is that it takes away the instant damage to one point and makes the ML, even with DoT much more favourable again. Changing it say to 5 damage every 2.5 seconds effectively turns it into a very heavy UAC 5. This may not be so much of a problem where it is one of the weapons in a mech like the Atlas. It totally changes it's usefulness in a Hunchback which is an ambush mech - it has to be with that weight and range profile. Solaris rules are great for Arena combat, where they want to keep it quick but IMHO it's wrong for what MW should be. Increasing RoF very far from canon changes the whole gamplay.

That could make for some very interesting variants on the tired old autocannon. Do you want the Big Bang for your ambusher, or do you want continuous dakka-dakka for your front-line assault?

[Grus]

if you want slow refire go play WOT and stop the QQ... if you go with a slow refire its gonna be a slow match. TT is nice and all but im not throwing dice in this game im throwing GAUSS slugs with a side order of pain...

[Ragotag]

mwhighlander, on 09 April 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

I know a lot of you really value your TT stats and everything, but I would LOVE to see how well you do in real time with a weapon that you can only shoot once every 10 seconds. Maybe that sounded a bit harsh, but this is just a prime example of things that don't translate well from turn base to real time.

It will be fine with TT stats. I've played the old ASCII graphics-based BTech MUSE's/MUX's, and they did exactly that -- a real-time clock tied to TT rules and stats. It generated some of the most adrenaline pumping gaming experiences that I've ever had; real nail-biters when you have to wait for the weapon system to recycle during dire combat situations.

I get the sense that their are really two camp's here: the weapon's platform combat simulator camp, and the first person shooter camp; both styles of play are very different and I have yet to see a game that could achieve a combination both reasonably well. My preference for MW:O is the former -- a weapon's platform combat simulator as close to BattleTech TT as it can be made to be. I would certainly not want MW:O to feel like I'm some anime giant robot laying waste to everything; instead, I want it to feel like I'm a tiny human piloting a real 14 meter weapons platform with all the limitations of materials, engineering, and physics applied even if the former two are fictional.

Edited by Ragotag, 10 April 2012 - 08:07 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Grus, on 10 April 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

if you want slow refire go play WOT and stop the QQ... if you go with a slow refire its gonna be a slow match. TT is nice and all but im not throwing dice in this game im throwing GAUSS slugs with a side order of pain...

Nor are we playing only NHUA Respawn. Perhaps one of the 4 other formats of MW, that are currently in production, would suit your trigger holding down desires better.

Doesn't WoT provide you a platform with only one gun?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 10 April 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[AC]

Having been part of a number of alphas and Betas for MW4 mods by both MekTek and NetBattleTech, I can tell you that all weapons have to be balanced as a package. The tabletop stats give you a good indication of what the original battletech weapons were suppose to be capable of, but then it is up to the Devs and test group to determine their final stats. The weapons stats will undergo many revisions before the open Beta, and I am sure they will change soon after that release as well.

The purpose is to provide balanced game play that appeals to a wide audience. Not everyone enjoys bringing a big ole AC20 and firing it once every so many seconds. Many players prefer death by 1,000 paper cuts, so for them there are the small lasers. Others prefer boating, and still others prefer weapons of similar range, but different recycle time. All these play styles need to be taken into account with balancing.

The final aspect is to consider how the weapons interact on the chassis. You don't want the AC 20 being able to combine well with another weapon to blow the leg off a Centurian in one shot. That would be no fun for anyone. So while these thread provide some interesting discussion, they really serve no purpose, because you can't arbitrarily pick stats for some weapons and not others. Especially without playing with any of them.

[Grus]

MaddMaxx, on 10 April 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Nor are we playing only NHUA Respawn. Perhaps one of the 4 other formats of MW, that are currently in production, would suit your trigger holding down desires better.

Doesn't WoT provide you a platform with only one gun?

im more of a sniper then a "run up in your face and rage spam mouse 1" but the simple fact that ill have to wait for that long to fire my ranged weps is insane. my main concern is thus. <-- sniper med mech' vs a heavy.. im being that ***hole that pops up from a hill with his radar off and takes a shot. now after a while that heavy is hurt bad.. now add my teammate in a scout runs up and Boom! alpha's him in the spot ive had to work on for 5 minits because of a 15 sec refire rate... he gets the kill and im stuck with the bill...

as for the WOT comment it was ment to confer the type of long as hell matches that i keep running into. and if your piloting a Hollander BZK-F3 you do only have 1 gun...

Edited by Grus, 10 April 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[Grus]

AC, on 10 April 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Having been part of a number of alphas and Betas for MW4 mods by both MekTek and NetBattleTech, I can tell you that all weapons have to be balanced as a package. The tabletop stats give you a good indication of what the original battletech weapons were suppose to be capable of, but then it is up to the Devs and test group to determine their final stats. The weapons stats will undergo many revisions before the open Beta, and I am sure they will change soon after that release as well.

The purpose is to provide balanced game play that appeals to a wide audience. Not everyone enjoys bringing a big ole AC20 and firing it once every so many seconds. Many players prefer death by 1,000 paper cuts, so for them there are the small lasers. Others prefer boating, and still others prefer weapons of similar range, but different recycle time. All these play styles need to be taken into account with balancing.

The final aspect is to consider how the weapons interact on the chassis. You don't want the AC 20 being able to combine well with another weapon to blow the leg off a Centurian in one shot. That would be no fun for anyone. So while these thread provide some interesting discussion, they really serve no purpose, because you can't arbitrarily pick stats for some weapons and not others. Especially without playing with any of them.

i do agree with some of this. as for that AC20 taking limbs off... all i have to say is if my GAUSS dosnt make a Atlas's gyro whine and give that big torso a twist.. daddy's gonna be mad...

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"The purpose is to provide balanced game play that appeals to a wide audience"

Although a true statement, it is also well known that casting the appeal net to wide often captures a "larger but shorter term" gaming player base.

Then the issue facing the Dev team is the constant need to readjust said balance in an attempt to keep/maintain those still playing (and asking/demanding for change, or else) all the while not skewing said balance such, that the same initial issue re-appears, but on the reverse side of the ledger, or having come full circle but now with a much smaller base.

[GrimJim]

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

Wha....

Polls for the sake of polls? This game's Beta need's to hurry up for the sake of the children!!!

[AC]

MaddMaxx, on 10 April 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

Although a true statement, it is also well known that casting the appeal net to wide often captures a "larger but shorter term" gaming player base.

Then the issue facing the Dev team is the constant need to readjust said balance in an attempt to keep/maintain those still playing (and asking/demanding for change, or else) all the while not skewing said balance such, that the same initial issue re-appears, but on the reverse side of the ledger, or having come full circle but now with a much smaller base.

As long as we don't end up in a 1-upper sort of tail spin. This has happened in MW4 with the MekTek mechpacks. Each pack releases new weapons that do more damage, and new mechs that carry more weapons. This results in the complete shelving of certain mech chassis and weapons. How boring is a game if everyone uses the same two weapons and the same mech chassis?

[MaddMaxx]

Grus, on 10 April 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

im more of a sniper then a "run up in your face and rage spam mouse 1" but the simple fact that ill have to wait for that long to fire my ranged weps is insane. my main concern is thus. <-- sniper med mech' vs a heavy.. im being that ***hole that pops up from a hill with his radar off and takes a shot. now after a while that heavy is hurt bad.. now add my teammate in a scout runs up and Boom! alpha's him in the spot ive had to work on for 5 minits because of a 15 sec refire rate... he gets the kill and im stuck with the bill...

as for the WOT comment it was meant to confer the type of long as hell matches that i keep running into. and if your piloting a Hollander BZK-F3 you do only have 1 gun...

Well if your only concern is who gets the Kill. Hard to Balance that issue as it is not a game based one. The maximum time would be TT based. 10 seconds, not 15.

And that Hollander, although not currently available for use, has 8 shots total. How many shots does a WoT tank get stock?

[Grus]

AC, on 10 April 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

How boring is a game if everyone uses the same two weapons and the same mech chassis?

very... thats why i try to stick to the heavies or med's i only like 2 assault mechs...

[Grus]

MaddMaxx, on 10 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

And that Hollander, although not currently available for use, has 8 shots total.

16 if you drop a ton of armor the nice thing about that mech is you dont have to expose yourself much to fire the wep. but your on to what im getting at. if for example i only have 8 round and IF the GAUSS is doing the damage its supposed to then those 8 shots should be about 6 light mech kills... if im a good shot. 4 if im a bad one.

Edited by Grus, 10 April 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[Outlaw2]

Weapons with a higher damage per hit tend to be better than weapons with lower damage per hit (even with a fast recycle timie to compensate). It becomes a pain to balance weapons with very different recycle times.

I think standardizing recycle time with damage per hit is a good idea to start off with. 10 second "recycle time" is what the TT uses buts thats too slow in a PC game. I would half it to 5 seconds. So for AC20 its 10 damage per 5secs. PPC 5 per 5secs. ML 2.5 per 5secs...and so on. Of course these are just values to begin with. Later testing can adjust values up and down depending on whats warranted.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 10 April 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[AC]

It isn't just damage over per time Outlaw. You also need to consider damage per ton and damage per physical slot. No one is going to take an AC20 if it only does 2damage/second if a medium laser also does 2damage/second. Why? Well the medium laser is only 1 ton, and for the same amount of critical space as the AC20, you can take 7 medium lasers. (There is a hunchback variant that does this, and it can do WAY more damage than the AC20 variant.)

The Devs need to balance with respect to damage, tonnage, critical space, recycle time, range, and weapon type. The weapon type is important as well, because some (like lasers) travel fast, where as some like Gauss have a slower travel time and take more skill to use, and yet others like LRM gain locking ability and require a completely different skill set entirely. They also need to pay attention to the damage type the weapon does. Is it putting a lot of damage to a single area like the AC20, or is it spreading its damage all over like the lasers appear to now.

There is so much that goes into balancing a weapons stats, that we can't honestly have a realistic discussion without having played the game.

[Felbombling]

Would it please every argument if we just took the standard TT round of ten seconds and shortened everything down to six seconds? All the standard TT balances stay in place, the weapon recylce rate would be a nice compromise between the TT fans and the twitch shooter fans. The end outcome would be Mechs dying quicker, but it could work out ok.