123 replies to this topic

[Grus]

I get the "TT" guys and all their yelling about keeping things canon and such, and they have a game coming out thats just like the TT but on the computer... this is gonna be about combat not i roll then you roll... 10 sec wait to fire a shot is WAY too long. 5 secs ok i can see that. 1.5-2 sec for short range / med range lasers ok...

[Grus]

for example. if in COD they put the actual reload time for my SAW or M240B then no one would EVER use it... AND NO PERKS lol so the 10 sec reload, yeah not liking it...

[Outlaw2]

AC, on 10 April 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

It isn't just damage over per time Outlaw. You also need to consider damage per ton and damage per physical slot. No one is going to take an AC20 if it only does 2damage/second if a medium laser also does 2damage/second. Why? Well the medium laser is only 1 ton, and for the same amount of critical space as the AC20, you can take 7 medium lasers. (There is a hunchback variant that does this, and it can do WAY more damage than the AC20 variant.)

Thats a beauty of a strawman if I ever saw one!

Of course the devs will need to consider all those other stats you listed. Never said they didn't. What Im suggesting is to effectively remove recycle time as a variable or at least lessen its impact (NOT damage over time). Recycle time is one stats that messes weapon balance in ways that are not immediately obvious, and Im sure you are aware of what those are. The less volatility with this stat the easier it will be to balance. Again, this is start off with, later you can adjust the stats as needed.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 10 April 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[Grus]

=Outlaw=, on 10 April 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

Thats a beauty of a strawman if I ever saw one!

Of course the devs will need to consider all those other stats you listed. Never said they didn't. What Im suggesting is to effectively remove recycle time as a variable or at least lessen its impact. Recycle time is one stats that messes weapon balance in ways that are no immediately obvious, and Im sure you are aware of those are. The less volatility with this stat the easier it will be to balance. Again, this is start off with, later you can adjust the stats as needed.

also something to consider is the shear physics of getting hit by some of these shots (AC20, GAUSS, PPC) its gonna make me go "huh?" when i rock a mech and all i do is remove paint...

[Namwons]

everyone weapon on a 10s timer would be the most stupid and boring MW game i would ever play...then not play.

[Sven Svenson]

I think we should start with 10 sec timer for the Beta then let the devs adjust things as needed when they actually have enough real feedback and info to work with . Thats what BETAS are for. I am in favour of longer games and but I still want my AC20 to do a single solid 20pt punch at a time otherwise its just not an ac20 anymore. that means long recycle time.

[Rambo Calrissian]

It's the job of the dev-team to balance out recycle time (and heat). Damage could just be as it is in TT.
(And AC20 could work as an automatic cannon opposed to a one-shot-big-gun.)

We will see how everything is, when the beta starts, and then everybody can start to contribute to that topic.
It's rather useless to discuss this topic now.

[Gigaton]

Grus, on 10 April 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

this is gonna be about combat not i roll then you roll... 10 sec wait to fire a shot is WAY too long. 5 secs ok i can see that. 1.5-2 sec for short range / med range lasers ok...

Hehe. You must have never played World of Tanks. It has up to half minute reloads, though about ten second reloads are more normal for high tier tanks.

(Edit) I see you have, after reading the last page. I'll mark it down to creative differeces then.

Edited by Gigaton, 10 April 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

even tho devs already discussed how lasers were going to work i went ahead and voted for the old school TT rules. i just like taking polls

[LackofCertainty]

First, a general complaint.

I don't want an AC20 to do 5 damage on a 2.5 second reload. If you want a rapid fire AC5, then you need to wait for the rotary AC5.

10 second reloads is a long time, and I understand that some weapons might need that value dropped (read: Machine Guns) but on the whole, I want heavy hitters (PPC, gauss, AC20, probably LRMs, and maybe LL's) to maintain 10 second reload. Why? Because it makes alpha strike/chain fire a bigger decision. If I cycle through my 3 PPC's on my Awesome, I can maintain a good firing rate with PPCs. If I choose to unload my alpha strike, I'm stuck mostly defenseless for a full 10 seconds. Also, maintaining the TT damage and reload on the big guns will make the fights interesting for me. My Atlas will only get the crazy burst of damage from the AC20 once every 10 seconds, yes, but in the meantime I have lasers and missiles to hold me over.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 10 April 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Grimm Gunn]

ok ... here's a thought....
Say we DO crank up the fire rate on weapons..
Or offer "mods " or Hacked" weapons...
BUT... heres the fun idea!!!
MAke the weapons have a nasty side effect to offset the the higher rate of fire... Kinda like a artifact in Ad&d..
Lets use the AC20...
Fire it as fast as you can pull the trigger and you fire,, BUT,,, you lost your recoil control, so your rocking after the 2nd shot and your accuarcy suffers at less than point blank range.. or perhaps your barrel melts or warps and you lose true point and shoot accuracy.
PPC's...
you shoot every 2 sec and the electrical interferance builds up and sends your sensors and HUD into epilptic fits and fuzzes out just like YOU got hit with the weapon...
Remember,, Every weapon has a weakness,, Making a GOD MODE weapon takes the fun out of playing unless you cant play without a cheat code..
Tosses 2 cents on the table....
Yeah,, I gots a pocket more of those.....

[Bruin Silverclaw]

I think it is going to be a challenge for them to balance live play with TT rules. Though it would make the game more of a true strategy game then a run and gun shooter. What I hated about other mechwarrior games was that combat was nothing more than circle the apponent and keep pulling the trigger, keep moving as fast as you can and randomly spray the target. The feel of the TT was never that way. Yes the light mechs would run for flank positions to maximize damage by shooting you in teh back, and the heavier mechs tended to go for opptimum field position and fire for accuracy. I always thought that was the point of recycle time. But than again my favorite build was a hunchback stripped down loaded with heat sinks and 8 medium lasers. Could run full tilt, fire all 8 lasers, and had the heatsinks to run cold every round.

[Pvt Dancer]

Here is the problem for all the folk who want to crank up weapon speed and reduce damage. We are talking the AC 20 here... does the AC 10 have the same break down? The AC 5 and 2? Then you start dealing with factions, and the craptastic MW games of old had factional armor too. So either the AC 2 does 2 points of damage per shot every 10 seconds or doesn't.
Makes sense that I have had to deal with these people on other threads that want a extra 1/4 ton of armor to 'fill' in space or guys who were arguing with me that a AC 20 needs 3 hits to destroy the head of a Jenner.... because they are old MW players. Those crappy games will have /nothing/ to do with this game, different company, different game. I could just not pound through their thick skulls that if the weapon is designed to do 20 points of damage, it should /DO/ 20 points of damage to a single location, in a single packet! Because when they don't, they nerf the weapon. And those same games are hypocrites when they have the base PPC do almost double damage in one shot... so the AC 20 should do 35pts of damage with the same mechanic? Yeah, that is why those games suck and those companies no longer make this game... *** backwards thought process.

[Sprouticus]

Both ends of the spectrum have issue

If the recycle on the parger weapons (Guass, AC20, PPC) are too low, then you end up with issues at the low end (SL, MG, AC2) as Dancer pointed out above


HOWEVER

If you end up with a TT 10 sec recycle, you will end up with 1-2 volleys at range then everyone closing to short range. You will end up with every fight devolving into a furball close range match and LR weapons will be shelved. Ask anyone who played NBT HC, the LR game in that mod was almost non existant. With MWO's sensor model it will be even EASIER to close.

I want there to be BALANCE. I want LR to be viable, but not the only option. I want a team who moves well to be able to close, but I want a good LR team to be able to tear up a bad team trying to close on them.

My thought:

5s recycle for all weapons. Half damage for all weapons. Lasers have a 1-1.5s fire time, so that not to bad. Yea, AC2's will be even less effective, and might need a bit of boost, but that would not be so bad.

Yes you will not do a full 20 points of damage on an AC20(half that) but it is still a nasty hit to take. It will actually end up making matches take longer which is a good thing and spreading damage a big more (unless you are uber accurate) which is also a good thing.

[UncleKulikov]

10 seconds to cycle a weapon? I would pass on the game if it was like that.

[Kudzu]

Sprouticus, on 10 April 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

If you end up with a TT 10 sec recycle, you will end up with 1-2 volleys at range then everyone closing to short range. You will end up with every fight devolving into a furball close range match and LR weapons will be shelved. Ask anyone who played NBT HC, the LR game in that mod was almost non existant. With MWO's sensor model it will be even EASIER to close.

Or, and bear with me because this is about to get crazy, it promotes good teamwork and a variety of mech types and roles to work together for maximum effectiveness.

Scouts become really important because they extend your sensor coverage, long range mechs soften up what the scouts find then hang back to use their range advantage, brawlers close in to finish off the softened targets, keep the enemy from closing on their long range team mates, or close the gap on enemy long range platforms, information warfare becomes vital because you want to find the enemy before they find you, etc, etc.

[William Petersen]

Sprouticus, on 10 April 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

If you end up with a TT 10 sec recycle, you will end up with 1-2 volleys at range then everyone closing to short range. You will end up with every fight devolving into a furball close range match and LR weapons will be shelved.

It's called proper force deployment. If you stuff all your mechs in one ball, that's your problem, not the game's

[Solis Obscuri]

Kudzu, on 10 April 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

You meaning moving away from alpha-striking twitch-fests and into slugging matches where fights last longer than an eye blink, teamwork/focus firing is vital, and lights and mediums can actually use their speed to their advantage? Sign me up!

If people could only shoot once every ten seconds, why would you expect them to do anything but pop-up, alpha, then run and hide for 9s?

I'm not for continuous rapid fire, which is equally silly, but allowing weapons at different rates should be fine as long as heat and ammo are enforced properly. Even if I can fire the AC/20 in my HBK-4G Hunchback three times over 20s, the medium lasers four times, and the small laser 8 times, I'm still generating 53 heat in the space of time I can dissipate 26 - can't keep that up forever, even on a fairly well heat-sinked 'mech like the Hunchie!

[Pht]

monky, on 09 April 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

I think you're aproaching this the wrong way.

Recycle time is fairly irrelevant, what matters is DPS (or in TT terms, damage per turn/DPT).

The TT DPS balance is easily preserved - heat output is the mechanic that touches ALL weapons which controls how often you can fire them.

If you want a lower recycle time, you add the proportionate amount of heat to firing the weapon. Vise-versa for longer recycle times.

[Sprouticus]

William Petersen, on 10 April 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

It's called proper force deployment. If you stuff all your mechs in one ball, that's your problem, not the game's

I do not mean this in a rude fashion, but your ignorance is showing. Even with proper force deployment (my unit had a history going back to MW2, through NBT-HC) you cannot change the fact that in the space of 2 alphas you can voer close to 1500 meters in mediums and fast heavies.

10s recycle will never play well.

But as someone pointed out, you can easily test it in the beta. I am just telling you that taking 12 short range mechs (or maybe 11 + a commander) will end up beating a mixed gorup most of the time in that config (completely open maps aside). And once you get inside the minimum range of those missiles and PPC's, say good night Gracie.