83 replies to this topic

[Caleb Lee]

** Note: I didn't vote because 1.6 or 1.7 isn't on the list **

The problem with balance is more from skills that increase heat dissipation and then total heat tolerance. These aren't in TT that I know of. So as someone posted earlier, it's not actually doing 2.0 it's higher due to the skill buff.

I'd support a vote of 1.6 or 1.7 that puts them close to 2.0 with elite unlocked.

As is, a straight nerf to 1.4 is flat out stupid.

I'm a gauss/lrm and basically ammo based weapon user. The only energy weapons I use are when I'm playing like a CPLT-C1 or the Hunchback series (i.e. 4P). I've tried the various Awesome builds in closed beta, and simply don't like the mech. However, there was a deadly player with a 3 PPC and a couple Streak 2 the other night who was a really good shot. Took my gauss cat out before I realized where the new fire was coming from on City. He ended up with like 4-5 kills against a mix of pug/pre-made.

I LIKE the fact that someone made good use of PPCs because in all the books I've read, past games I've played (MW3 & 4), PPCs and energy weapons have been viable builds.

Right now I feel that:

AC 20 is a joke (Too much heat, not enough ammo with FF and double armor, not enough knock)
SRMs were nerfed to nothing/uselessness (They were already tough to hit with bay door delay, lag, traversal. My CPLT-C4 SRM 6 x4 build is a joke now compared to it actually being deadly in close).
PPC/ER-PPC up until DHS were a joke. With double armor and the proposed heat changes they will be sub-obtimal/bottom of chain again.
Streaks knock-back is freaking ridiculous (2 missiles shouldn't do as much knock as 40 LRMs and 2 AC20s, in chainfire on an A1 this is just nuts, maybe if they fired all 6 STRK2s it should do what it does now. What happens when Streak 4/6s come out?)

Yeah, they have major issues in this game. I will continue to give them time but decisions like this one without fixing even the other issues I posted above in the weapons area are very disappointing and make fans like me cringe when friends ask how MW:O is.

"My answer the other night was, it's entertaining and fun but has a lot of issues. You need to have a good group of at least 4-6 if not 8 to play with as it's designed for team play and you will get rocked by pre-mades if you try to PUG or play wit only 2-3 friends."

My esteem for the game just dropped another point or two. Not the right direction at all.

Edited by Caleb Lee, 04 November 2012 - 03:05 PM.

[Kmieciu]

I don`t know how the Devs reached that conclusion... did thay try to play with a stock Awesome 9M with double heatsinks at 1.4x dissipation rate?

[Magovai]

1.4 is way low, but they are worrying about Balancing the game right now. As they balance it, I'm sure they will bring it up to 2.0.

[Lightfoot]

Their proposed fix will just buff-out the no-heatsink&no-armor freaks that are skirting MWO's balancing, while adding heat penalties to configs that use logical constructions of heatsinks, armor, and energy weapons. Basically making all DHS=1.4 gives a huge buff to 'mechs that use no added heatsinks, but a huge nerf if your config uses 16-17 or more total (EHS plus DHS).

So, if they have to adjust something I suggest they only adjust Engine DHS to 1.4 or whatever they want, but leave added DHS at 2.0. This is only fair and creates a solid foundation for the creation of custom configs in Mechlab.

Best solution is to have all DHS=2.0, then figure out what weapons are running too cool. It's certainly not the ERPPC which will remain unusable in DHS 1.4 MWO.

[Kmieciu]

Lightfoot, on 05 November 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

then figure out what weapons are running too cool.

I`ll give you a big hint: it starts with a big "G" and ends with "S"

[Xeven]

If they nurf the DHS so they are less viable I want all the C-bills back I have spent reconfiguring my Mechs. All of it.

[MustrumRidcully]

Magovai, on 04 November 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

1.4 is way low, but they are worrying about Balancing the game right now. As they balance it, I'm sure they will bring it up to 2.0.

The AWS 9M vastly outdamages the 8Q after all with its impressive 3 ER PPC alpha strikes that it can spam for 9 seconds!

Mustrum "I was told I should note when I was being ironic, because not everyone notices it at first glance. I am using irony here. Sarcasm even." Ridcully

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 November 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Well whatever is decided, we will have 1.4's to test come tomorrow. I noted in "another " thread that Engines @1.4 and externals at 2.0 might be doable, but will need testing as well.

I will take a 40% increase in Heat dissipation if that is all that is offered. If someone offered you $140.00, but your heart was set on $200.00, just because, would you send them on their way empty handed?

And stating "Balance aside" is the same as saying I just don't give a ****, just "gimme gimmme... what I want... waaaaaa!" Grow up ffs.

P.S. "Here Maxx, have a Snickers!"
"Why?"
"Because you get angry when your hungry!"
"Better?"
"Yah. Better!"

Edited by MaddMaxx, 05 November 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[Lerzpftz]

With the current system, or the 1.4 DHS heatsinks my ugly 6 med laser jenner profits most, since it has almost all it's criticals available for the not-so-good DHS, can use the saved weight and has a pretty big engine for its size. The same goes for the HBK-4P and a few selected other designs. This will make them more tough, while heavy and assault mechs will get a very minimal buff out of DHS, if any at all. If they want to go that route - fine.

I had hoped for 2.0 heat dissipation and usable awesomes / high heat weapons. It's a pitty.

[ArmyOfWon]

What 1.4 DHS has done has made DHS worse for every assault mech than SHS across the board. If you have an "upgrade" that is worse in every single situation for an entire CLASS of mech, you've seriously screwed up. There should be pros and cons for upgrading any single chassis from SHS to DHS. If there are only cons, something's wrong.

(Yes, on the flip side, if there are only cons to not upgrading, that is also bad. There needs to be Balance).

For instance, the AWS-9M, which comes with DHS, is worse across the board with DHS compared to downgrading to SHS once the 1.4 DHS change hits.

[ChapeL]

This needs testing... it is STILL what we are here for.

[Mister Dark]

Honestly, it became completely different than TT when SKILL was added to the game and people could actually AIM instead of rolling dice. I roll all sixes now and take out up to six people per game! :-D Of COURSE I'd love double heat sinks... Imagine what I could do then!

HOWEVER...In thinking about the guys who CAN'T aim, it would separate them even FURTHER from being able to survive and might drive them from the game COMPLETELY... :-/ That's something to think about too...

[DocBach]

thank you single heat sinks whiner socialists "but SHS aren't as good as DHS and they need to be BALANCED!"

[Game_Overture]

Arisaema, on 02 November 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Paul, I am thoroughly unimpressed that PGI has decided to drop double heat sinks down to 1.4. Game balance aside, double heat sinks work as designed on tabletop, why do they not work in this game?

For someone to honestly believe that somehow a turn based table top game with dice rolling would translate 1:1 to a real-time simulator using player skill is mind numbing.

Thank god you and everyone else with this mentality isn't in charge of the game's design.

Edited by Crescent Fresh, 05 November 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Dreadp1r4te]

Crescent Fresh, on 05 November 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

For someone to honestly believe that somehow a turn based table top game with dice rolling would translate 1:1 to a real-time simulator using player skill is mind numbing.

Thank god you and everyone else with this mentality isn't in charge of the game's design.

You can cite simulation vs emulation theory all you want, but here's the harsh reality...
The Gauss was translated pretty much 1:1 from TT, even in this simulation environment, and now its stupidly overpowered because you don't have to roll to see if/where you hit.
PPCs were competitive with Gauss in TT as they were based mostly on the same principle, but since things like DHS aren't being implemented properly, they will be vastly underpowered, for obvious reasons, not including the minimum range. And yes, I know, ER PPCs, but those generate 50% more heat per shot than standard PPCs... so.

1.4x efficiency DHS is a bad, stupid, idiotic idea. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken...

Here's a sample of some math I ran last night; PGI promptly closed and locked the thread when I also pointed out their flaw in the Laser and Pulse Laser heat generation mechanics...

1: (Prepatch) 10 EHS (Single Engine Heat Sinks) + 5 DHS in 'Mech = (10 * .1) + (5 * .2) = 2 Heat Sunk Per Second
2: (Prepatch) 10 EHS + 10 DHS in 'Mech = (10 * .1) + (10 * .2) = 3 Heat Sunk Per Second
3: (Post 1.4 Patch) 10 EDHS (Double Engine Heat Sinks) + 5 DHS in 'Mech = 15 * .14 = 2.1 Heat Sunk Per Second
4: (Post 1.4 Patch) 10 EDHS + 10 DHS in 'Mech = 20 * .14 = 2.8 Heat Sunk Per Second
5: (If 2.0 Patch) 10 EDHS + 5 DHS in 'Mech = 15 * .2 = 3 Heat Sunk Per Second
6: (If 2.0 Patch) 10 EDHS + 10 DHS in 'Mech = 20 * .2 = 4 Heat Sunk Per Second

As you can see from Line 4, 20 total DHS at 1.4 efficiency nets LESS cooling than our existing implementation. Thanks for the Nerf, PGI... as if energy weapons NEEDED any more of a nerf. Line 6 is interesting, though; sinking a total of 4 Heat Per Second would render a single ER PPC almost heat neutral; i.e., there would be one unit of heat left once the ER PPCs recycle time was complete. This would significantly increase the viability of PPC/ER PPC builds, making the iconic weapon more... I dunno, useful and competitive? I can't see that as being a bad thing... the limiting factor in DHS is the fact they do take up 3 crits per unit, so fitting 10 of them would take up a total of 30 crits, making your weapons loadout very difficult... if that's even possible. Not even sure if there's enough crits in a 'Mech to fit 10 DHS and still include weapons, as only the LA, RA, LT and RT have space for them...

[StreakEagle]

2.0 is TT rules. Keep it that way.
The problem is not the DHS, it is the rate of recycle on weapons not matching the 10 second turn of TT.
So simply fix that.
In the TT game you can only fire each weapon once per 10 seconds.
In MWO you can recycle much faster, thus you build more heat. DHS lets you drop the heat faster at a cost of cash and Crits in the mech. BUT they should only drop 2X # of DHS of heat in 10 seconds, no more.
The problem we have is the heat sinks work too fast, not that DHS is OP.
The solution is to impliment the penalties for heat as in the TT game. At 10 heat you slow down and start to lose accuracy, at 20 it's severe and you have a chance of cooking off the ammo, at 30 you shut down and have a high chance of cooking off ammo.
This will make people run the mech cooler or suffer the repercussions per the TT rules.
So a Laser Alpha may still be massive, but you are going to miss with the next shot and may cook off your ammo.
Also, the thread on delaying the heat flow from weapon to mech is right on the money. That is much more realistic.
Your alpha strike doesn't instantly overheat you, it does so a couple seconds later. And once you shut down, the pumps are not running to move coolant so the heat sinks drop to about 1/4 efficiency, thus you stay shut down longer !

And Endo, Ferro and DHS were coming in before the clans got here, just not widespread. Only certain groups had them at first. Make them very expensive and taper the cost over time. That will slow the pickup of the Tech.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The Poll is biased. Based on the only choices presented, you don't even have to read any posts to know this poll is a joke.

This is even more apparent after reading what the developers said about DHS - they would rather bring them into the game less effective than needed and then buff them, instead of bringing them in overpowered and nerfing them.

Raise your hand if you would not complain if the Devs buffed DHS to 1.6. Lots of hands, right?

Raise your hand if you would not complain if the Devs introduce 2.0 DHS and nerf them down to 1.6 after finding that 1.6 is the best value for game balance. Any hands?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 05 November 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Raise your Hand if you would not complain if DHS give 2.0 and they still don't balance the weapon stats with heat generation/dssipation in mind!

Mustrums "Not raising my hand on this one" Ridcully

[Kmieciu]

Yeah, if the DHS gave 2.0 heat dissipation, mechs in MWO would still run 30% hotter than in TT using SHS.

Edited by Kmieciu, 06 November 2012 - 04:57 AM.

[Mister Zeus]

Double Heat Sinks, Gauss Rifles, and Clan Tech are what ruined CBT. I for one am happy that they are at least addressing one of those mistakes in CBT.

Gauss Rifles should generate at least 5 heat given the damage they can dish out at the range they can dish it out at. It wouldn't change a single thing about the abusive Gauss-apult either, but it would certainly make people hesitate about boating ERPPCs and Gauss Rifles with massed Medium Lasers for backup weapons like half the mechs after 3050 did.