90 replies to this topic

[Lord]

I'm curious how many people think various weapons are overpowered or underpowered.

The standard for this poll is: is the weapon currently over/underpowered to the extent that you want something changed about it.

There are enough threads of argument about this. Let's not make this another one.

Note: I had to squeeze weapons together to some extent due to limitations on the number of options. Please mention if you think some weapons of a group are over/underpowered but not others.

Note 2: Preview doesn't show me the poll. I hope this works properly.

[Lord]

Surprises so far:

More people think the PPCs are underpowered than the MG and Flamer, some people think small pulse lasers are overpowered but no one thinks medium lasers are (I've always heard mls are better than spls, though I have no spl experience), and the LL and ERLL are almost tied.

[Arumi Ornaught]

I don't think any one weapon is over powered. I've never once said "Oh man, an X everyone run away." The power weapons have a drawback that you can't put down on paper. Mostly because it isn't a 100% fact but more of a common scenario. When I see a 'big' weapon (10+ tons in one area) I focus that area. Even if they still have other defences they are then mostly pacified. Goes extra fast with 8 people firing at that one mech.

The PPC's, MG/Flamer, AC5/10, lbx needs a buff. I'm not going to give you fancy numbers, just these are weapons I've rarely seen used. Which usually corresponds with that they are underpowered.

[Kyle Hawkins]

My summary.

Autocannons underpowered: Lack role, too hot, ammo intensive, very slow velocities, massive accuracy randomness resulting from ping and netcode.
Potential solution = This is the linchpin of this post. Autocannons weapons make "DHS=2" energy weapons look over powered, when they're not. Raise the bar for Autocannons, and the DHS debate is moot. Reduce heat across board allowing them to complement energy weapons rather than replacing, like in all other MW games. Increase ammo to reflect current double armour. Increase firerate to allow higher short term DPS whilst maintaining ammo concerns. Increase velocity a bit more. Fix firing delay from strange netcode.

Heavy energy weapons underpowered: Overall too hot and heavy to be competitive.
Potential solution = Double Heat Sinks with 2.0 heat dissipation.

Smallest energy weapons overpowered: Players trade to S-Las boating since other weapons are too hot to fire as intended.
Potential solution = DHS = 2.0 resulting in more hardpoint competition from heavier weapons.

Gauss Rifle overpowered:
Potential solution = All of the above. Brings other weapons into line with Gauss.

LRM Complaints:
My view and Partial tweak = I don't mind LRMs. Good positioning and forethought goes a long way. All of the above will howver help soften the LRM menace a bit. Additional long range threats such as ER-L-Las and ER-PPC will put additional pressure on both LRM support and their scouts. I would further comment that the initial launch still needs tweaking to prevent the utterly ridiculous firing into the ground issue.

Streaks:
My view = Streaks have a valid role as light killers. Light pilots need something to fear, and this is it. You check for them first, and you stay the hell away. Their 270 MAX range should always be remembered, watched and used against Streakerboats.
An impending future disaster however = The S-SRM6. When this beast turns up on the battlefield, allowing any and almost all mechs to eat lights for breakfast, the forums will burn and anarchy will reign. Light pilots will become a rare breed. I'm calling it now. Wait and see. Consideration for the future of the streak needs to be kept in mind. Just fix the other stuff first.

Pulse Lasers:
Comments = Pulse lasers are a strange case, and numerically make very little sense. Small and Large pulse are generally just worse. Medium pulse has a fair role in highly specialised builds, but will harm any builder that doesn't understand them. Pulse lasers in general feel like "noob traps" to me. "DHS=2" would lessen the divide between standard and pulse lasers a little. Won't suggest anything at present.

Machine Guns worthless: Total bollocks. Worthless and more dangerous to pilot than enemy. Shouldn't be a primary weapon, but needs a role.
Potential solution = Reduce power of ammo explosion for MG ammo. Allow MGs to do double or even tripple damage to internals. Armour damage remains worthless as it should be. Alternatively, allow MGs a very high chance of dealing crit damage to systems, making them a weapon and heat sink stripping tool.

Flamers worthless:
Potential solution = Give flamers a small AOE/splash damage effect, allowing flamers to equally cook adjacent hit locations. This would allow flamers to finish off highly damaged internals and armour gaps that the pilot is otherwise manoeuvring to protect. It's a very small buff, but adds a role and fits the flavour.

Edited by Kyle Hawkins, 02 November 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[VoidConductor]

Well I'm surprised how good all votes fit in my subjective balance feeling/opinion :/

[Lord]

The thing that really confuses me is the MGs. I don't see any reason to make them so crappy. The flamer makes sense - a weapon that adds heat could easily be unbalanced, so it's worth being cautious and scaling up from there. The MG is never going to be a huge threat (assuming they don't give it lunatic numbers), as hardpoint restrictions mean you can't carry large numbers of them.

But they are so utterly bad that it must have been clear they would be bad when they made them this way. I mean they don't set the world on fire in TT, but they aren't as bad as here, and anyway the devs seem very willing to massively upgrade weapons like the AC2 that aren't that good in TT to make them competitive.

In general I think weapon balance is pretty good, though. It could use some work, but I'm happy.

[Vassago Rain]

The only 'overpowered' weapon is the streak missiles.

[Steel Claws]

Gauss are not overpowered so much as AC create too much heat and might travel a touch too slow. The gauss rifle is SUPPOSED to be a top tier weapon. It is on the same level in cannon as AC 20. It currently weighs almost as much as a AC 20 while doing 5 less damage. Why is that in any way OP? Yes it can do that at almost double the range but that is it's niche. It also reloads far slower than most of the AC weapons and is incredibly fragile. I've seen more than one mech die because it's gauss rifle exploded. The Gauss is perfect as is.

Faster reload is what ACs are for. The ability to keep mechs rocking. Personally I am seeing far more AC use than there used to be.

PPCs are still too hot to use in any great amount and don't seem to register consistant damage. This may be a lag shooting issue. They seem fine straight on.

SSRM 2s were never meant to be a weapon that rules the battelfield but they are ATM. The scatter effect might bring them into line but that remains to be seen.

Edited by Steel Claws, 02 November 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[Telthalion]

Kyle Hawkins, on 02 November 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

...
Machine Guns worthless: Total bollocks. Worthless and more dangerous to pilot than enemy. Shouldn't be a primary weapon, but needs a role.
Potential solution = Reduce power of ammo explosion for MG ammo. Allow MGs to do double or even tripple damage to internals. Armour damage remains worthless as it should be. Alternatively, allow MGs a very high chance of dealing crit damage to systems, making them a weapon and heat sink stripping tool.

...

Having just taken the time to fill out the basic efficiencies on my Raven 4X yesterday, I can now comment on the in-game effects of machine guns through first-hand experience:

My main three suggestions for buffs would be one (or some hybrid) of the following:
- Double the damage against internals.
- A flat 50% damage boost with a chance per hit to do extra to internals.
- Increase the rate of fire by 30-50%.

I would also bump the range up to ~200m with a bit of spread so that beyond optimal range your shots will be sprinkling all over a small- to medium-sized 'mech - whereas within 100m you can focus the entire spray into 1-2 components on your target.

I realize the 90m range is true to TT but in practice it's pretty ridiculous, only making a pointless weapon even more pointless.

Edited by Telthalion, 02 November 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[Hidirian]

Kyle Hawkins, on 02 November 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Machine Guns worthless: Total bollocks. Worthless and more dangerous to pilot than enemy. Shouldn't be a primary weapon, but needs a role.
Potential solution = Reduce power of ammo explosion for MG ammo. Allow MGs to do double or even tripple damage to internals. ****Armour damage remains worthless as it should be.**** Alternatively, allow MGs a very high chance of dealing crit damage to systems, making them a weapon and heat sink stripping tool.

I love how people seem to think this, but its simply not true. The Machine guns placed on a mech are NOT some piddly m60 that fires 7.62mm rounds, they are equivalent to an 20mm Gatling gun firing 20mm rounds. This weapon is designed to rip light vehicles/tanks and of course infantry apart. In TT it does 2 damage over 10 seconds to another *mech* not just infantry or light vehicles, the machine guns in mwo should be doing .20 damage per round instead of .04 seeing as how their fire rate was NOT tripled like every other weapon in mwo and as they are at the moment as everyone seems to agree they are worthless.

[Kyle Hawkins]

Steel Claws, on 02 November 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Gauss are not overpowered so much as AC create too much heat and might travel a touch too slow. The gauss rifle is SUPPOSED to be a top tier weapon. It is on the same level in cannon as AC 20. It currently weighs almost as much as a AC 20 while doing 5 less damage. Why is that in any way OP? Yes it can do that at almost double the range but that is it's niche. It also reloads far slower than most of the AC weapons and is incredibly fragile. I've seen more than one mech die because it's gauss rifle exploded. The Gauss is perfect as is.

Faster reload is what ACs are for. The ability to keep mechs rocking. Personally I am seeing far more AC use than there used to be.

Yes and no but mostly yes. Right now I consider the Gauss massively OP compared to the AC20 and other autocannon. Key word there, compared. It's also considerably trumps energy weapons since all the ER versions of the energy weapons run so hot that you almost never see them used.

The problem isn't in the gauss itself, but the other weapons. ACs need a lot more attention to compete. Further specialising ACs in higher ROF or reload speeds is the flavour I'm looking for. Even the AC2 in MWO currently fires slower than most all described TT auto cannons. There are AC20 models that fire as fast for petes sake. The flaws in the energy weapons (heat management) likewise are made obvious when you look at things like the stock swayback, that can't even fire once every 10 seconds without going into meltdown. Mechs aren't supposed to be heat neutral no, but they're meant to be a damn sight cooler than how the game plays now. DHS=2 is needed or these larger energy weapons will never escape being irrelevant junk.

Like above. Gauss is fine, fix the rest.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Hidirian, on 02 November 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

I love how people seem to think this, but its simply not true. The Machine guns placed on a mech are NOT some piddly m60 that fires 7.62mm rounds, they are equivalent to an 20mm Gatling gun firing 20mm rounds. This weapon is designed to rip light vehicles/tanks and of course infantry apart. In TT it does 2 damage over 10 seconds to another *mech* not just infantry or light vehicles, the machine guns in mwo should be doing .20 damage per round instead of .04 seeing as how their fire rate was NOT tripled like every other weapon in mwo and as they are at the moment as everyone seems to agree they are worthless.

^^

In TT the MG does the same amount of damage as an AC2, but with vastly reduced range and no heat. The MG should fill the same basic role as the small laser in MWO, short range low damage (per shot) weapon. Being able to use 2 MGs to fill out a ballistic heavy mech should be a viable option, not the joke it is now.

[Kyle Hawkins]

Hidirian, on 02 November 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

I love how people seem to think this, but its simply not true. The Machine guns placed on a mech are NOT some piddly m60 that fires 7.62mm rounds, they are equivalent to an 20mm Gatling gun firing 20mm rounds. This weapon is designed to rip light vehicles/tanks and of course infantry apart. In TT it does 2 damage over 10 seconds to another *mech* not just infantry or light vehicles, the machine guns in mwo should be doing .20 damage per round instead of .04 seeing as how their fire rate was NOT tripled like every other weapon in mwo and as they are at the moment as everyone seems to agree they are worthless.

Fair enough. I'd not heard how they stated them before now. That's pretty bad honestly.

My suggestion's main goal was to find them a flavour fitting role. A valid role in the game is more or less the most important part to having fun weapons and encouraging varied play. I feel it would be ideal if they didn't simply become an alternative knife fighting weapon, but given that information some degree of a straight up damage boost certainly would be good.

[The Velociraptor]

Machine guns, flamers, and LBX are indeed very underpowered.

All of those are close to useless.

Some will say that flamers can block pilot's view but common...

Edited by The Velociraptor, 02 November 2012 - 06:57 PM.

[Lord]

They gave a damage boost to all the spread weapons except for LBX. Anyone know why?

Also, say they put back the dual functionality of LBX (switching at will between solid shot = AC10 and spread shot). Would they be overpowered at that point? I've seen it said that they plan on implementing that.

[Kyle Hawkins]

Lord, on 02 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

They gave a damage boost to all the spread weapons except for LBX. Anyone know why?

Also, say they put back the dual functionality of LBX (switching at will between solid shot = AC10 and spread shot). Would they be overpowered at that point? I've seen it said that they plan on implementing that.

I hadn't considered that yet, but with how the LBX weighs less, takes less crits, is longer range, and 33% less hot, yes, a straight up mode switch option would overpower it without some kind of additional feature/drawback. This is another example of why tech and stats based around story telling and GM handouts via salvage and weapon dumps make things awkward for PGI. I'm not actually sure how I'd suggest getting round that right now.

I did miss the LBX in my main post though. It's another weapon that needs fixing, since it's blatantly against the canon flavour to be a straight up shotgun. And canon flavour is the important bit. I'm a big advocate of tweaking the stats away from canon if it makes the gun feel and behave more like you imagine it should.

Like others have suggested the LBX needs some kind of hit detection in order to airburst in front of the target and deal consistent spread damage. More consistent damage also helping the devs to adjust it's effectiveness without having to worry about pesky degrees of spread at differing ranges and such. Even if the implementation was as simple as having an invisible extended collision zone in front of the visible projectile, and the weapon dealing basic AOE damage along with a faux shotgun spread effect, that would be an improvement.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

For the record

Gauss rifles are not OP,
but every weapon that is a direct competitor to it is UP, the AC10, PPC, ERPPC
hence everyone uses Gauss rifles as the only direct fire weapon

[Lugh]

There are no OP'd weapons in the game. Period. Only 17 of you had sense enough to vote that way.

There are several Underpowered weapons in the game and a larger number of you got those right.

[ShastaBlasta]

PPC - Damage output seems a little low, would also like to see some emp effects.

Streaks - I dont think these are as OP as a lot of ppl do, I just think that the streak cat build is currently a little OP. When boating streaks it can get out of hand, however if not boated the damage seems right IMO.

AC20 - I would like to see this thing rip off some light mechs arms in one shot. Maybe not a damage buff, but a multiplier when hitting lighter targets/lighter parts. Ive seen some light mechs take 3 hits before their armor is peeled off. This may just be the netcode or lag as well.

MG/Flamer - would definately like to see these get more of a role and not just be dead weight.

Gauss - OP

[Max Steelwolf]

To me
-LRMs are a little out of hand, due to the fact that full vollies can strip armour like nothin.
-AC20 are ok the way they are, just maybe they can be made tougher so they dont die in a couple of hits
-ER weapons in general should have more damage since in the other mechwarrior games they did or at least make them do more damage at close ranges
-streaks, well I'm with ShastaBlasta here the weapon is fine the streak cats are just OP
-Gauss, you guys are nutz to think that there OP (unless the dmg value of 10 has change to something greater which it sure don't look like), Its just the gauss cats that are to OP.