93 replies to this topic

[Lycan]

mike29tw, on 02 November 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Russ said it in an interview. They don't want this game to become an arm race. They want to make the game as skillful and competitive as possible, so of course lots of the BT value is gonna get changed.

It's kind of hard to have an Arms Race when only 3 or 4 weapon systems are getting used. And that seems to be the trend lately.

But maybe that was the point. Make the other weapons so terrible that no one would want to use them, thus you've only got a handful of weapons to chose from.

So, no arms race.

Edited by Lycan, 03 November 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[Sirous]

trycksh0t, on 02 November 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

See, the issue here is you're trying to equate critical slots to physical size..it has nothing to do with physical anything. If it did, there is no way a Commando could carry the same amount of equipment as an Atlas, but according to BattleTech rules it can. It is nothing more than a balancing mechanic.

As for fixing the weapons, we've been waiting MONTHS for that to happen, and it was never even hinted at. Actually, the PPC was made WORSE at one point with a RoF increase...so you can overheat faster. Sure, DHS would allow Jenners to run around with massed lasers, they would also allow an AWS-9M to punch 'em in the face with 3 ERPPCs...repeatedly. DHS would let a -K2 Catapult actually be a -K2 Catapult in all it's charged particle death dealing glory. The only thing the 1.4 heatsinks accomplish is making builds that boat low-heat weapons the kings of MWO because they're the only 'Mechs with sustainable damage output.

Even going crit for crit in the engine with singles Heat sinks, you can't honestly say that adding doubles should not add some crits to the engine at a minimum. If they did that at all it would make sense, add more weight to it though that defeats the purpose. You are basically taking a stock engine doubling its heat dissipation, This should force you to give up two slots minimum on each side torso for those heatsinks not engine crits but heatsinks. Something related to the engine would make sense. You are in essence gaining 10HS for a few cbills and thats it, no other compromise needs to be made.

[Farmer]

Yeah. By 3050, heat usually WASN'T a problem for lights and many mediums. Even with L2 weapons. An Atlas still had to worry about heat, but it was also mounting fifty tons of guns. Some mechs, like the Awesome, were intended to be heat neutral in spite of their size. That;s one of the reasons the Awesome has it's name. It was capable of putting A LOT of hurt down with no effort whatsoever. It was assault mech easy mode. Believe it or not, the K2 was in the same boat.

Current heat vaules and disipation are based around the Jenner and the Slayback. The inclusion of those two mechs has made balancing every other mech damn near impossible.

[Khobai]

1.4 DHS are totally useless on assault mechs which should not be the case. If youre paying 1.5 million to upgrade to DHS you should get some benefit from them.

[Vassago Rain]

Sirous, on 03 November 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Even going crit for crit in the engine with singles Heat sinks, you can't honestly say that adding doubles should not add some crits to the engine at a minimum. If they did that at all it would make sense, add more weight to it though that defeats the purpose. You are basically taking a stock engine doubling its heat dissipation, This should force you to give up two slots minimum on each side torso for those heatsinks not engine crits but heatsinks. Something related to the engine would make sense. You are in essence gaining 10HS for a few cbills and thats it, no other compromise needs to be made.

It's space magic. If you want to change how the system works, change how the system works.

If you're porting the entire system, 25+ years of terrible decisions included, port the entire system. Don't be all 'oh, we were only pretending to understand that the blingy guns were made with the intention that you need dubs to use them!'

Even ARMOR TYPES later use heat. Do you understand how flawed PGI's plan is? The whole game is based around heat, and early on, the designers said you should be able to use magic to double your basic heat. So 90% of the mechs are made with 20 or so sinks total, usually only ever from the engine.

I don't care if they change the numbers, but if they're porting THE SYSTEM, they'd better understand why THE SYSTEM works the way it does. So far, they haven't shown any signs of this, so now we have doubles that are only 1.4 points each.

Which makes them almost useless, and also renders all the tech and mechs that rely on them almost useless.

[Sirous]

Vassago Rain, on 02 November 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Those weapons are mostly reliant on doubles to function. That's how they were even brought into existence. Because 20 some years ago, they decided the game was too slow with 10 'heat points' for everything, so you could suddenly double your 10 to 20, and add a lot more very easily, so you could shoot your big, fancy, new laserguns more times, or use way bigger ones.

That PGI ported the tech system, but didn't do 1+1=2, is just silly.

In the source game, as old as it is, a 'proper' mech would have like 24 heat points. There are *gasp* ER PPC snipers that are designed to stand and shoot all their guns every single turn, for the whole game, without stopping, or eer adding heat.

They are 'neutral' mechs, producing only as much as they can take.

So they magically doubled the Heat dissipation of the engines. Hence the issues I have with it in particular. Not DHS mind those make sense to me but the whole you magically have doubled the engine values with absolutely no compromise elsewhere in the design of the mech.

[Lawler]

trycksh0t, on 02 November 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

See, the issue here is you're trying to equate critical slots to physical size..it has nothing to do with physical anything. If it did, there is no way a Commando could carry the same amount of equipment as an Atlas, but according to BattleTech rules it can. It is nothing more than a balancing mechanic.

As for fixing the weapons, we've been waiting MONTHS for that to happen, and it was never even hinted at. Actually, the PPC was made WORSE at one point with a RoF increase...so you can overheat faster. Sure, DHS would allow Jenners to run around with massed lasers, they would also allow an AWS-9M to punch 'em in the face with 3 ERPPCs...repeatedly. DHS would let a -K2 Catapult actually be a -K2 Catapult in all it's charged particle death dealing glory. The only thing the 1.4 heatsinks accomplish is making builds that boat low-heat weapons the kings of MWO because they're the only 'Mechs with sustainable damage output.

This 100%

The fact is, the game is starting out at the brink of, what amounts to, Armageddon. The setting we're in now is so comparatively primitive after 300 years of warfare, that all the shiney new level 2 tech (ER lasers and PPCs, streaks, DHS, ect.) seems 100% OP. it should. It was cutting edge when the things we have now were still considered relatively high tech. By hour 2 of the Clan invasion, I guarantee you would be rage flipping tables if they didn't change their current implimentation of double heat sinks. Clan tech makes our current tech look antiquated to say the least. And it very well should considering they spent the same 300 years perfecting and advancing the tech while the Inner Sphere was blowing it all up.

Look, you can say all you want about not caring about the settings and fluff in the Battletech universe, but without it, it's going to mean nothing. Without it, things that are the way they are will have you scratching your head saying, "what the phuch?!". That's not your fault completely. You could simply do a google search othings or visit the Sarna website, but I think the largest fault lies with PGI for not really making it abundantly clear at times for the players that have no drive to find out what the game is all about. Mechwarrior is NOT about giant walking tanks with pew pew and whoosh. It's about 5 noble houses locked in constant warfare over who is going to gain control over the sovereignty of the Inner Sphere after the exodus of the Star League Defense Forces and collapse of the Star League itself. The battlemech is simply the ends to the means. The proverbial might of rule that the noble houses leverage when they really want something done. THAT is mechwarrior. Not some weapons balancing act or fair play simulator. There WILL be inferior weapons and sub standard tech. It's the crap you're using right now and the crap that new players will start with in their trial mechs. It gives then a reason to play so that can upgrade to the non-craptastic gear that lets them start earning the big money.

All that said and done, PGI had really dropped the ball on the overall feel of these weapons. PPCs used to be the go to pew pew and the AC/10 was your standard issue thud gun. This was even after the recovered lostech. Gauss rifles were still pretty OP, but they were hard to maintain and easily damaged, so most people stuck by their AC/5s and 10s and perhaps an ultra. But as the tech developed, even these mainstays get FULLY REPLACED by their tier 2 counterpart. By 3058 you DO NOT see a battlemech running single heat sinks or standard AC. Just about anyone who can afford it had upgraded because it very much IS an arms race to that extent. It goes level 1 tech < level 2 tech < Clan tech (generation 1) < Clan tech (generation 2). Period.

If you don't understand this or are unwilling to accept it, I hear there's a game called Hawken that might just fit you better...

[Vassago Rain]

Khobai, on 03 November 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

Well the reason is laser boats. DHS make laser boats much more effective. But instead of punishing every single mech build by nerfing DHS, they need to focus primarily on punishing laser boats.

But laserboats aren't a problem.
Gauss and LRM spam is. Streaks are a problem.

Lasers? Who cares about lasers? Do you care about lasers?
Are the devs so out of touch with their own game, they would actually believe this?

I hope not, or we're about to sink like the ToRtanic.

[Khobai]

Quote

But laserboats aren't a problem.

If laserboats arnt a problem then why are they so reluctant to make double heatsinks 2.0? Obviously laserboats are the concern here... because gauss and streaks barely generate any heat anyway so the move to double heatsinks doesnt affect them.

[Vassago Rain]

Sirous, on 03 November 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

So they magically doubled the Heat dissipation of the engines. Hence the issues I have with it in particular. Not DHS mind those make sense to me but the whole you magically have doubled the engine values with absolutely no compromise elsewhere in the design of the mech.

I could link you to silly technobabble about how the tech works, and all the sci-fi behind it, with macross robots, and stereotype chinamen in space.

Do you care?

I don't think you should care. Just care about the numbers, and what I'm saying. If they're porting the system, port the system. Don't do this. Just port the system.

If you don't want to, make a new system. You can't change a basic principle of the system, and not expect it to ruin everything else. Later on, armor uses heat. Computers use heat. Moving faster use heat. Punching harder uses heat. There's punch metal that gets stronger the hotter you are.

You don't care about the sci-fi behind it, just that it works a certain way.

[mike29tw]

Lawler, on 03 November 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

If you don't understand this or are unwilling to accept it, I hear there's a game called Hawken that might just fit you better...

You really want PGI to fail don't you?

That's exactly what's gonna happen if you shove off every player that doesn't have deep knowledge in BT.

[Vassago Rain]

Khobai, on 03 November 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

If laserboats arnt a problem then why are they so reluctant to make double heatsinks 2.0? Obviously laserboats are the concern here... because gauss and streaks barely generate any heat anyway so the move to double heatsinks doesnt affect them.

Because gauss rifle uses ammo, and they want you to buy ammo.

You don't understand it yet? Lasers are free. Missiles and slugs cost money to replace.

[Farmer]

Vassago Rain, on 03 November 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

If you don't want to, make a new system. You can't change a basic principle of the system, and not expect it to ruin everything else. Later on, armor uses heat. Computers use heat. Moving faster use heat. Punching harder uses heat. There's punch metal that gets stronger the hotter you are.

WHat'll be really fun is that some of that will start showing up in a year or two, and part of what balanced THAT tech was that you had to work to generate enough heat to take advantage of it. In 3025, heat was a problem for many mechs. In 3039, heat was a problem for some mechs. In 3050, heat was a minor annoyance for mechs with more guns than sense. In 3067, heat was something you worked towards so some of your goodies would actually be useful.

[Khobai]

Quote

Because gauss rifle uses ammo, and they want you to buy ammo.

You don't understand it yet? Lasers are free. Missiles and slugs cost money to replace.

Except they dont. You can just turn autorearm off and you start with 75% ammo for FREE.

[Farmer]

Khobai, on 03 November 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

Except they dont. You can just turn autorearm off and you start with 75% ammo for FREE.

I'd bet money that their internal testers don't do that.

[Vassago Rain]

Khobai, on 03 November 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

Except they dont. You can just turn autorearm off and you start with 75% ammo for FREE.

Are you implying they'll keep 75% free ammo, or move to the intended 25% the moment they have a cool, new mech to show us?

[Lawler]

Sirous, on 03 November 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

So they magically doubled the Heat dissipation of the engines. Hence the issues I have with it in particular. Not DHS mind those make sense to me but the whole you magically have doubled the engine values with absolutely no compromise elsewhere in the design of the mech.

A technology of significant enough advancement will seem like magic to the ignorant.. or something to that effect.

No, it's not magic, it's the next evolution nof the heat sink. They aren't bigger than regular heat sinks, they simply take more critical space because they're more delicate and/or susceptible to enemy fire. It's the balancing system they used in tabletop to allow for those big cannons, but make lighter weapons doing less damage viable because they were more reliable in combat. If size were a reflection of critical spaces, a 400 rated engine shouldn't take up the same space as a 100 rated engine.

And as far as engines and the heat sinks within them goes... Once again, we're talking FUSION reactors that only take up a few tons. The only fusion reactor we know about currently is sitting above your head every day and is considerably more weighty. So I guess if you really want to call it magic, I suppose if they can magic up a ******* fusion power plant to fit inside my walking death machine, I think they can magic me up some double strength heat sinks at some point, too.

[Sirous]

Lawler, on 03 November 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

This 100%



Look, you can say all you want about not caring about the settings and fluff in the Battletech universe, but without it, it's going to mean nothing. Without it, things that are the way they are will have you scratching your head saying, "what the phuch?!". That's not your fault completely.

All that said and done, PGI had really dropped the ball on the overall feel of these weapons. PPCs used to be the go to pew pew and the AC/10 was your standard issue thud gun. This was even after the recovered lostech. Gauss rifles were still pretty OP, but they were hard to maintain and easily damaged, so most people stuck by their AC/5s and 10s and perhaps an ultra. But as the tech developed, even these mainstays get FULLY REPLACED by their tier 2 counterpart. By 3058 you DO NOT see a battlemech running single heat sinks or standard AC. Just about anyone who can afford it had upgraded because it very much IS an arms race to that extent. It goes level 1 tech < level 2 tech < Clan tech (generation 1) < Clan tech (generation 2). Period.

If you don't understand this or are unwilling to accept it, I hear there's a game called Hawken that might just fit you better...

Actually I did do a search on google and sarna, And all it said was pretty much that doubles work in engines just as they do outside. Then goes on to explain WHY DHS take up so much more crit space, by being more ineffiecient but using more space. Hence the crit slots, hence my issues as to why the Engines don't get crit slots added or amount of Engine Heatsinks reduced when going to doubles, This is all based on what has previously taken place in the universe of BattleTech. Compromise, just not here.



I like the weapons, they each have their slightly own flavor and feel, though PPC's and AC's still need a little help for the most part. LL and ER LL need to be tweaked, LRM and SSRM damage reduced. Due to being guided/semiguided weapons. Gauss needs a weight and crit slot increase.

And No I have played and will continue to play enough COD, BF3 style games, one with robots does not interest me. A slower paced game where I have to think about every movement, no respawn has me totally enthralled at the moment.

[Farmer]

Increase the weight and crit space of the gauss and there are mechs that literally cannot exist in this game. Not are very hard to implement, but actually impossible to implement. And I'm not talking variants. The base chassis. Game over. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Here's a bowl and a knife. Don't worry, I'll chop you head off before you cry out. Game over, man. And that's why canon matters. Some of the systems they've implemented defined the very construction of the canon cannons. Heat needs to be brought down across the board, dissipation increased, and heat sinks moved to normal values. Heat neutrality is a thing. A normal thing, as much as the devs seem to think otherwise.

[ollo]

Sirous, on 02 November 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

I just love how everyone was whining that DHS didn't work in the engine, though with my lack of knowledge of BattleTech, I figured thats how it was supposed to be, Engines came with 10 SHS.

You're wrong.