48 replies to this topic

[Felbombling]

Stymir, on 04 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

the game would be very empty, the point I'm trying to make is that if pugs are going to complain about being stomped then they should take the initiative and join a group. if you've ever done a premade versus premade drop it's a lot more fun for both sides. It's a lot more competitive and just in general leads to bet a better game.if it was all about individuals then why doesn't even give us the option to drop as groups.

Flip side of that coin would be for the players who 100% premade drop start dropping as solo players. I remember plenty of matches in the early Beta stages that were excellent. The onus should not be placed at the feet of the players just trying the game out or PGI. At what point does stomping PuGs get boring? I play 50-50 premade and PuG, and I can tell when I get bored. Is it a quesiton of slogging through because the money is too good?

[Stymir]

I don't have any founders mech's, I ground my way to my first mech. when i started i dropped in a lot of pug matches and i learned almost nothing playing those matches it was only when i joined my company that i actually learned a lot about how the system really worked and even more about good builds. I have become a better pilot because of this. i do not feel necessarily obligated to drop with my group i still drop in pug matches all the time when ever Ive got a second and want to get a quick drop in.
pugs are a team i fundamentally disagree with this.
a team is a unit of interdependent individuals with complementary skills were committed to a common purpose and set up performance goals and to a common expectation they hold themselves accountable
how does a group of pugs in anyway reflect this. do work together somewhat. But you do not try to base your tactics around what you have.

[StrategosTalon]

BoomDog, on 04 November 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

As a new player, I think what bothers me the most right now, is the 'stare down your nose'...'you're all a bunch of COD players' attitude of many of the veteran players.

I've always just pugged in every game I've ever played. I like it for several reasons. Mostly because I can jump in and leave without feeling like I'm obligated to stay (I'm a dad with kids). I'm an introvert. I don't want to chat. I like the random chaos.

However, that doesn't mean that every pugger goes charging into the middle of the enemy. Believe it or not, most of us try to stay together. You say "Join a team", but I say, "We puggers already are a team".

All we ask for is a level playing field. As the game stands, it's not even close. You got players who haven't even figured out how to pilot a trial mech yet, fighting veteran players with tricked out mechs and maxed out skills.

I've had amazing, fun matches, but it was always when the teams were balanced.

What amazes me is the number of vets crying a river about not getting to 8 man pugstomp anymore. They act like they want competitive play, but the truth is, they want easy kills.

If pre-mades want to challenge themselves, have them all load up in trial mechs and go to battle. Maybe it would remind them what it's like trying to learn this game.

BoomDog,

You bring a fair point. As a new player whose been dropping for less than a week, I agree that veterans crying about not being able to pugstomp and rack easy kills makes the game less fun to play.

However, when the veterans "stare down your nose" they do so because the PUGs are often the ones whining first. These are not mature players like yourself who understand what they want out of the game, but rather players that want to say they dominate in MW without taking the time to realize that this is a different breed of game that operates on a different set of principles and strategies and is populated by people that have been invovled with the series since the 90's if not before.

I also say that PUGs are not and never will be a team. A team has a collective plan and objective and thus can work in concert with each other. They also have a working knowledge about how each member operates and reacts to a situation. PUGs have as many agendas as their are PUGs and cannot work as effectivly together as a "Pre-Made" team. They generally do not know each other and generally do not care to know each other.

The developers have made the system fair. You cannot ask those who have spent much longer practicing and staying up to date with the latest developments and their teams and in geneal going that extra mile to give up all they have achieved and built to play on "fair" terms with someone not willing to learn the nuances of MW:O. If we do that, that would be highly unfair to the veterans themselves.

I have dropped without knowing the first thing about how this game works and I have and still get my chassis handed to me in virtually every fight PUG or Pre-Made. However, instead of whining and saying the game is unfair, I instead take the time to figure where I went wrong, communicate with others more experienced, take their adivce and attempt to better the next drop. I am willing to humble myself and acknowledge the prowess of the vetereans because they have already walked in my shoes and have simply made the time and effort to become better pilots. I've had amazing matches against Pre-Made teams. There is always something to be gained by watching better teams and builds operate because they show off strategies others I have not seen before.

Veterans were in trial mechs once too.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

NagaGunner, on 04 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

TBH to all the people who keep complaining about premades, just keep in mind the game isn't about you.

It's about your K/D ratio, which is best padded by slaughtering new players and PUGs on a premade.

[Glitched Naga]

The concept of money grinding against a full pre-made vs pugs had not crossed my mind in this thread, but that was never the issue to begin with. It is a problem with a very simple solution, either form a premade (doesn't have to be with a corporation, clan, or friends) or just take the risk of jumping in solo. Think of how the concept of world of tanks go, you have your small premades, and you go in solo. I see no difference in those terms.

[Hikyuu]

RAM, on 04 November 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Tactics > Teamwork > Technique > Tonnage


RAM
ELH

pretty much sums up this topic, and reality.

[Stymir]

when I do drop with the premade. I very rarely hear anybody mention their KD. In fact most the time that the KD is mentioned is when a member of the opposing side disconnects right before they die to save their KD.

[Mechsniper]

Your premise that you need to join a clan or merc corps is cogent, but incorrect. I have beaten some of the better premades(I recognize many names now after 4 months or so of closed beta) in pugs. Guess what, a lobby and in game voip will go a LOONG ways towards evening things up. Much is not in place that should be. You SHOULD know the map your dropping into. You SHOULD be able to join a lobby and discuss lance selection. You then, SHOULD have a working in game VOIP to put it in effect. Even typing I need help in F5 from two hunchbacks,or Hey the ridge in G7 is lined with LRM boats and Gauss cats is way too long and can get you or your team killed. Many premades who think they are all that will then find out if they are or not. I may only be average, but there are some talented guys pugging it. The game is very incomplete. These items should be priority.

[BoomDog]

StrategosTalon:



Team: a number of persons forming one of the sides in a game or contest.


Therefore, even pugs are teams. They may be sloppy unorganized teams, but they're teams.

As far as you thinking the system is fair. Take WoT for instance, when you start that game, you're pretty much driving around in a tin can fighting other players driving tin cans. Almost everyone is brand new to the game and they're all learning together. You don't run into a pre-made team with half the players driving a Maus. In fact, since the developers of WoT are well aware of the effect of pre-mades being allowed to fight in pugs, they've limited the number of people that can platoon at two (3 if you have a premium account). That's at the most 3 people out of a total of 15 per team.

Pre-mades should fight pre-mades. It's that simple. I would think that this is what pre-mades would want too, if they really wanted a challenge that is.

[hanitora]

Quote

I also say that PUGs are not and never will be a team. A team has a collective plan and objective and thus can work in concert with each other. They also have a working knowledge about how each member operates and reacts to a situation. PUGs have as many agendas as their are PUGs and cannot work as effectivly together as a "Pre-Made" team. They generally do not know each other and generally do not care to know each other.

I don't necessarily agree with you. A pug can function as a team, but it's the exception not the norm.

I'd also like to point out that a pre-made is not necessarily people who know eachother. I started playing during open beta and while I played every single one of my drops with the exception of 4 as a pre-made, I did not previously know any of the people I was playing with. I met them for the first time in my first drop with them.

Quote

You don't run into a pre-made team with half the players driving a Maus. In fact, since the developers of WoT are well aware of the effect of pre-mades being allowed to fight in pugs, they've limited the number of people that can platoon at two (3 if you have a premium account). That's at the most 3 people out of a total of 15 per team.

Please for the love of god don't ever bring up WoT as an example of something positive again. If the enemy team gets 2 or 3 of those 3 player premades, you'll still eat **** as the disorganized pub rabble that you are. There is nothing fun about PUBing in that game. The fact that you can get a 50% win ratio is hardly enough to outweigh the disgusting grind and awful balance.

********, stop mentioning that game already. I don't want to remember it.

Edited by hanitora, 04 November 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Greers]

RAM, on 04 November 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Tactics > Teamwork > Technique > Tonnage


RAM
ELH

Not necessarily true concerning Premades if the optimize their builds. Example: 5 Jenners (carrying Streaks), 2 Cat-A1 (carrying Streaks) and 1 close combat Atlas (2 LBX10, 2 SRM6, MLas).

Now the composition of my PUG: 2 Jenners, 3 Raven Trials, 1 Trial Dragon, 1 Founders Cat, My Founders Atlas (Streaks, Gauss 2 LLas).

Now tell me the tactic to defeat that Premade as that PUG!

[Vernius Ix]

Ugly wall of txt

[Taryys]

[Guide] Playing with Friends, Groups, and Teams

Once C3 works for PUGs this will change drastically.

Premades do not want to stomp PUGs. It is not interesting, challenging, or fun.
I cannot wait for the Match Maker changes... I am dying for this, not only because I am a Shieldwaller, but also because I PUG as well.

[Bluescuba]

Where do you get the idea that premades want to pugstomp...

In reality premades, get bored playing against pugs... Premades want to fight premades, and if they simply had an option in the matchmaking that could separate the premades from the pugs; i doubt you would ever see more than a couple of premades every 100 or so pug matches (if that often).

With regard to teams... I do not think i have seen a pug group, where members will sacrifice themselves for the others in the group. However, in premades you will see this - a dragon and a hunchie holding the tunnel in frozen against unsummountable odds, heroicly laying down their lives... to allow a damaged lrm cat to escape as its missiles are needed; that is teamwork because it doesn't matter if the hunchie or the dragon dies so long as the team wins.

[Bluescuba]

Greers, on 05 November 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

Not necessarily true concerning Premades if the optimize their builds. Example: 5 Jenners (carrying Streaks), 2 Cat-A1 (carrying Streaks) and 1 close combat Atlas (2 LBX10, 2 SRM6, MLas).

Now the composition of my PUG: 2 Jenners, 3 Raven Trials, 1 Trial Dragon, 1 Founders Cat, My Founders Atlas (Streaks, Gauss 2 LLas).

Now tell me the tactic to defeat that Premade as that PUG!

You are joking right?

That is a terrible premade... the founders atlas and cat in the pug team together with the trial dragon and the ravens simply have to engage the 2 streak cats first from long range, the pug jenners run interference keep some of the premade lights away until the cats are dead. Once the cats are dead, the dragon and ravens join the jenners to keep the lights of the two founders pug mechs which will 2 v 1 the premade atlas hopefully from range.

[Caleb Brightmore]

Mechsniper, on 04 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Your premise that you need to join a clan or merc corps is cogent, but incorrect. I have beaten some of the better premades(I recognize many names now after 4 months or so of closed beta) in pugs. Guess what, a lobby and in game voip will go a LOONG ways towards evening things up. Much is not in place that should be. You SHOULD know the map your dropping into. You SHOULD be able to join a lobby and discuss lance selection. You then, SHOULD have a working in game VOIP to put it in effect. Even typing I need help in F5 from two hunchbacks,or Hey the ridge in G7 is lined with LRM boats and Gauss cats is way too long and can get you or your team killed. Many premades who think they are all that will then find out if they are or not. I may only be average, but there are some talented guys pugging it. The game is very incomplete. These items should be priority.

As someone who is pugging while awaiting a yes or no from a group I must agree with you completely.
If I could voice command things it would change things very very fast while pugging.
I have 2 hunchies chasing my Cent 1 with Srms and the other with Lrms I dont have time to open and close chat nevermind type in it lol.

[Phlinger]

Bluescuba, on 05 November 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

Where do you get the idea that premades want to pugstomp...

In reality premades, get bored playing against pugs... Premades want to fight premades, and if they simply had an option in the matchmaking that could separate the premades from the pugs; i doubt you would ever see more than a couple of premades every 100 or so pug matches (if that often).

With regard to teams... I do not think i have seen a pug group, where members will sacrifice themselves for the others in the group. However, in premades you will see this - a dragon and a hunchie holding the tunnel in frozen against unsummountable odds, heroicly laying down their lives... to allow a damaged lrm cat to escape as its missiles are needed; that is teamwork because it doesn't matter if the hunchie or the dragon dies so long as the team wins.

You know, I would love to believe this, I really would. I have to admit, I hadn't seen too much of the PuG vs. Pre-made in game until last night. I knew there was a problem, and have even posted on ways that it can be improved. If the new players think it is a problem, then any game would be wise to consider it a real problem. new players are your life blood, plain and simple. Veterans have already payed their money, new players = new money. Deal with is vets.

So anyway, last night... I exclusively PuG by choice driven by real life circumstances.

Game 1 was against a PuG, good match, everyone said GLHF and GG when the game was won by our opponents. It wasn't a PuG stomp match, but a good brawling one.

Game 2 Pre-made, rolled my PuG in river city. Once they got to the base, they thanked us for allowing them to beat the crap out of us, douche-bags. It was clan, they announced themselves afterwards. No I won't name-and-shame them.

Game 3 Exact same clan on winter map. I announce they were a pre-made, the PuG panicked, scattering to the four winds /sigh.

Game 4 Pre-made on River City. Was more of a voice PuG though. We killed a few, had a decent match, they won.

Game 5 Another self righteous Pre-made, once again they refused to announce themselves until they were at the cap.

Game 6 Another PuG stomping pre-made

Game 7 Game 8 Game 9 Game 10 Out of all the Pre-mades, only one had enough courteousness to announce themselves. This designates they were in fact trying for quick and easy kills, by using their surprise factor to their advantage.

The night continued to grow more and more frustrating, until after the fifteenth game I logged, deciding I won't play the game again until Tuesday. And I won't. If the game remains like it is, I will stay away from this game and warn others to do the same as well. I have been following this game since it was announced, even as Mechwarrior 5 back in, what 2008?

I played Pen&Paper back when the Original boxed set of Battletech, you know the one with the Warhammer on the cover. I played Mechwarrior 1 and 2 on my crap fest PC way back in the day. I have a huge interest in this game as I love the Battletech and Mechwarrior franchise.

But these failures by PGI to even handle the developing in a decent time makes me think they tackled a project out of their league. Matchmaking should have been fixed before we went into Open beta. You only have one chance to make a first impression.

[Bluescuba]

Ronyn, on 05 November 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

You know, I would love to believe this, I really would. I have to admit, I hadn't seen too much of the PuG vs. Pre-made in game until last night. I knew there was a problem, and have even posted on ways that it can be improved. If the new players think it is a problem, then any game would be wise to consider it a real problem. new players are your life blood, plain and simple. Veterans have already payed their money, new players = new money. Deal with is vets.

So anyway, last night... I exclusively PuG by choice driven by real life circumstances.

Game 1 was against a PuG, good match, everyone said GLHF and GG when the game was won by our opponents. It wasn't a PuG stomp match, but a good brawling one.

Game 2 Pre-made, rolled my PuG in river city. Once they got to the base, they thanked us for allowing them to beat the crap out of us, douche-bags. It was clan, they announced themselves afterwards. No I won't name-and-shame them.

Game 3 Exact same clan on winter map. I announce they were a pre-made, the PuG panicked, scattering to the four winds /sigh.

Game 4 Pre-made on River City. Was more of a voice PuG though. We killed a few, had a decent match, they won.

Game 5 Another self righteous Pre-made, once again they refused to announce themselves until they were at the cap.

Game 6 Another PuG stomping pre-made

Game 7 Game 8 Game 9 Game 10 Out of all the Pre-mades, only one had enough courteousness to announce themselves. This designates they were in fact trying for quick and easy kills, by using their surprise factor to their advantage.

The night continued to grow more and more frustrating, until after the fifteenth game I logged, deciding I won't play the game again until Tuesday. And I won't. If the game remains like it is, I will stay away from this game and warn others to do the same as well. I have been following this game since it was announced, even as Mechwarrior 5 back in, what 2008?

I played Pen&Paper back when the Original boxed set of Battletech, you know the one with the Warhammer on the cover. I played Mechwarrior 1 and 2 on my crap fest PC way back in the day. I have a huge interest in this game as I love the Battletech and Mechwarrior franchise.

But these failures by PGI to even handle the developing in a decent time makes me think they tackled a project out of their league. Matchmaking should have been fixed before we went into Open beta. You only have one chance to make a first impression.

I am not sure that premades announcing that they are premades at the start of the game would should or could effect the outcome. I can't remember many games were either my team or the opposing team declares that they are premade. We tend to give a hint with comments like "Mead" "Borg" "Skjaldborg" "Shieldwall" or implying that we will send you to "Valhalla", but unless you have played us before you may not realise we are a premade until the match ends.

[Taryys]

Skjalborffff!!
Mead and Wenches!
Give us your Mead!!!

We are here for the mead and wenches... but mostly the MEAD!!!

[River Walker]

The new guys need a training map to learn and build on.
I just don't understand why this is so hard for PGI to understand or for you Farmer out their.

And yes this game is team play that's why it should be Team V Team and Pug V Pug so the new guy get a shot to enjoy the game and learn to play it with out getting Farmed by a gang looking for fast XP and Cbill to build up fast.

I will not be activating my account, not because of the Farming but because as is this game is not worth putting any more cash in to it until their is a lot more content with a working game that really supports team game play with Fraction.

Right now my game play and buying MC is on hold I mite pony up more with new Mechs for my Mech bay but that's about it until their is real Team play put in and not this joke of Ripping the new guys and calling it Team play.

Edited by River Walker, 05 November 2012 - 08:54 AM.