24 replies to this topic

[Abrahms]

I know players have talked about this before, but as you know, Im great at using 3rd grade math to demonstrate basic, gamebreaking principles.

DHS in battletech were 1 ton, dissipates 2 heat, and used 3 crit slots.

Singles are 1 ton, 1 heat, 1 crit slot.

If you can see right away, that DHS already heavily favor light mechs. Crit space doesnt really change, so a mech mounting 4 medium lasers (4 crits) has plenty of space to use DHS. A mech with an AC20 alone using 10 crit slots suddenly has a lot less space. This was still overall built into battletech's balance, which though not perfect, was far better than MWOs (see threads about heat sinks and tripled ROF).

SO, if DHS are now 1.4 heat per second.... well, 1 dissipation to 2 is a 100% increase, with 200% increase in crit space to 3 (in other words, 200% dissipation for 300% space).

1 to 1.4 is a 40% increase. An 80% increase for the crit space would put it at 1.8, double the increase in heat dissipating power. From the other direction, 3 crit space * .7 = 2.1 crit space. 2 heat dissipation times .7 = 1.4 heat dissipation. Meaning, DHS was only .7 efficient with space but 200% with tonnage. We lost that balance.

Whether looking at it from 1.8 or 2.1 tons for 1.4 heat dissipation, both proportional increases land you at roughly 2 crit slots for 1.4 heat dissipation.

Edited by Abrahms, 04 November 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Sorry that makes sense.

[KinLuu]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 04 November 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Sorry that makes sense.

Yeah, sounds like a bannable offense to me.

[MustrumRidcully]

I don't know, Abrahms... I am not saying your math is wrong. I am saying PGI's math is wrong and if they don't fix it, do we really want to "haggle" with them? It reminds me to much of the stages of grief. Are you in phase 3 of your mourning over the loss of a Mechwarrior game?

I would understand PGI being worried about the power of the DHS if our single heat sinks aren't already half as strong as they'd need to be to create balance between low and high heat weapons...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 November 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[Sandpit]

I'm not posting my personal opinions on DHS. Couldn't this have been posted in one of the numerous threads already in the forums on this subject?

[MustrumRidcully]

Sandpit, on 04 November 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

I'm not posting my personal opinions on DHS. Couldn't this have been posted in one of the numerous threads already in the forums on this subject?

I dunno, does any of the other threads discuss that DHS should cost 2 slots if they are only SQRT(2) HS?

[Phelan Ward-Kell]

Not to take from your logical statement, because it's not impossible that it could be a direction to consider going, but this belongs in the SUGGESTIONS section of the forum.

NOT THE GENERAL SECTION.


Thank you, and have a good day.

[Wingbreaker]

Stop posting, please.


Edited as requested.

Edited by Wingbreaker, 04 November 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[Sandpit]

uhm yes actually they do, not to mention that this discussion could have easily been integrated into any of those threads. Why in the world would anyone want to log on to the forums and have to scroll through 3 pages just to see something besides LRM, Gauss, and DHS posts? It does nothing but clutter up the forums and make it harder to find other information.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sandpit, on 04 November 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

uhm yes actually they do, not to mention that this discussion could have easily been integrated into any of those threads. Why in the world would anyone want to log on to the forums and have to scroll through 3 pages just to see something besides LRM, Gauss, and DHS posts? It does nothing but clutter up the forums and make it harder to find other information.

I think it accomplishes exactly what it should accomplish. SHow the devs what the community cares and is worried about. If other topics would be so interesting to the community, we'd see more posts and threads for them. I know, it seems much neater if every topic had exactly one thread and that'S it. But that's not how forums work. At least not unless moderators keep their tabs on it and merge threads that have the same topic.

[Sandpit]

No, it actually violates the CoC, there are (as of right now) 5 threads on the front page regarding this. There are 4 about matchmaking and 3 about weapon and heat balance.

That's 12 threads that should be reduced to 3.

This is off-topic on the OP and I'm not hijacking the thread.

[Barrin]

Time to pull out information regarding Battletech.

IS double heat sinks take up 3 critical slots.

Clan double take up 2 critical slots.

IS have only recently rediscovered how to make double heat sinks.

The Clans have improved on how they work, better materials, better coolant, etc.

I sure that this has been mentioned in other double heat sink threads.

[Abrahms]

Sandpit, on 04 November 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

No, it actually violates the CoC, there are (as of right now) 5 threads on the front page regarding this. There are 4 about matchmaking and 3 about weapon and heat balance.

That's 12 threads that should be reduced to 3.

This is off-topic on the OP and I'm not hijacking the thread.

so what is general for then? "good day, dont you think the dragon model is quite fancy"?

[Wingbreaker]

Barrin, on 04 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Time to pull out information regarding Battletech.

IS double heat sinks take up 3 critical slots.

Clan double take up 2 critical slots.

IS have only recently rediscovered how to make double heat sinks.

The Clans have improved on how they work, better materials, better coolant, etc.

I sure that this has been mentioned in other double heat sink threads.

Damnit, Barrin, stop telling them things. It's better to watch them flail about.

[Phelan Ward-Kell]

Abrahms, on 04 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

so what is general for then? "good day, dont you think the dragon model is quite fancy"?

General is for general conversations about Mechwarrior, not whining, ********, complaining, suggestions, logical theory, flaming, spamming, ***********, fondling the guy next to you OR ******** AT THE DEVS!

[Sandpit]

Abrahms, on 04 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

so what is general for then? "good day, dont you think the dragon model is quite fancy"?

Well since you asked..... it's for general discussions. The suggestions forum is for well suggestions
The violation of the CoC I referenced was posting duplicate threads. not being off-topic. I was actually saying that the "argument" between myself and another poster was getting off-topic and I didn't want to hijack your thread. I do still think it merely clutters up the forums at this point since there are at least a dozen threads about this exact same subject. Just because someone has a different idea doesn't mean it should be posted in a new thread. It means it should be added to the already ongoing discussions so we don't have 2 pages of threads on the exact same subject

[Coralld]

At OP.

I'm not saying that your argument is wrong on your math when it comes to heat efficiency, I find PGIs choice of reducing its 2.0 efficiency to 1.4 to big of a reduction, but I also understand that they also want to make single heat sinks some what relevant. At least, that's my take on it.

As for its slot size being three instead of two, there is a very simple reason for this. This is do to the fact the IS (Inner Sphere. That's us, for those who don't know the BT/MW story) are using the older and more primitive DHS, and as such is why its so bulky. The Clans on the other hand have an advanced version which is just as effective as the IS DHS but is more compact as they only take up two slots instead of three and still only way one ton.

Here is a link for those who are interested.
http://www.sarna.net...uble_heat_sinks

Damn, Barrin beat me to it.

Edited by Coralld, 04 November 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Abrahms]

Coralld, on 04 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

At OP.

I'm not saying that your argument is wrong on your math when it comes to heat efficiency, I find PGIs choice of reducing its 2.0 efficiency to 1.4 to big of a reduction, but I also understand that they also want to make single heat sinks some what relevant. At least, that's my take on it.

As for its slot size being three instead of two, there is a very simple reason for this. This is do to the fact the IS (Inner Sphere. That's us, for those who don't know the BT/MW story) are using the older and more primitive DHS, and as such is why its so bulky. The Clans on the other hand have an advanced version which is just as effective as the IS DHS but is more compact as they only take up two slots instead of three and still only way one ton.

Here is a link for those who are interested.
http://www.sarna.net...uble_heat_sinks

Damn, Barrin beat me to it.

I know that. But, they still broke the proportions, again.

[Phelan Ward-Kell]

Abrahms, on 04 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

I know that. But, they still broke the proportions, again.

They didn't break them, they're testing them. Testing is what you do in beta. Hence Beta "TEST"

[Agent 0 Fortune]

There is an issue with double heat sinks, they don't provide as much benefit to high heat mechs (which means they are vastly more useful for light and medium mechs). I think dropping them to 2 slots is a viable workaround, but then what will differentiate the clan heat sinks, which are supposed to be more space efficient?