79 replies to this topic

[Valaska]

H3rtz, on 04 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

This, Otherwise the raven would be useless.

Its... People are really unimaginative when building mechs aren't they? I mean really, there are so many ways you can make a Raven useful and NONE of you can figure any of them out?

[Tardstrong]

As a hopeful scout I hope these are restricted to certain mechs.
How foes ECM work? Does it cover a blanket area? Could a fast mech run within an area of friendlies to help against lrms?
My real reason to post:
Ram; why is your commando link in your sig in an area I can't access? What can I do to see it?

[GODzillaGSPB]

Valaska, on 04 November 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Its... People are really unimaginative when building mechs aren't they? I mean really, there are so many ways you can make a Raven useful and NONE of you can figure any of them out?

I actually experiment a lot with the Excel Mechlab. Jenner, Commando, Raven. I think the raven is only really viable as a painter, using either TAG or NARC. But everything else - speed, protection, firepower...the Jenner beats him hands-down. The Commando scores at least even and is much nimbler, too.

The Raven is a bad fighter and a rather slow scout. But it was always known as a tech-mech. And I think PGI should make it that way again.

[RG Notch]

What a waste of dev time if they limit it. Why bother if it's only going on to one chasis? It's not like they don't have other issues. Anyways this sounds like the silly arguments about FF and Endo only going on certain models and thankfully that didn't happen. I really can't understand why people want PGI to waste time on something that will have almost no use.

[Tresch]

I'm going to chip in here just because I support just about anything that adds character and variety to the mech variants. (I wish there was more variance in handling like there was in mech4... widely different accell/decel/twist/turn speeds even between equally weighted mechs)

So yeah, +1 to electronics packages requiring some kind of hardpoint that not all mechs have

[StonedVet]

Well since they are allowing gauss on cat's im gonna assume they will allow ECM on anything that moves instead of what is supposed to have it.

[BumbleBee]

I'd like to see ECM and BAP and their ilk have specific hardpoints dictated by variant like AMS. More role variation between different variants is a good thing. Mechs that can have these packages in canon should still get them (unless there is a major issue with overpowering that variant) and maybe bolster some weak variants and specialise others for a specific role.

[Quxudica]

Sprouticus, on 04 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

In the 'in the lab' post, Bryan indicated that they care currently doing initial balancing for ECM and that currently it is OP for some builds.


My solution would be to use ECM (and BAP) as a variant specific option, not for everyone. If they make it available to all mechs, it has to have very limited impact across all of them, which will make it pretty much useless.

Instead, use ECM as an option to make otherwise weak variants useful, as the Devs currently do with hardpoints and modules.

Again, you can do the same with BAP.


this allows you to make ECM good (not game changing) without making it useless.

I wouldn't mind ecm being a little OP, I'd like to have people need to aim to hit me again. Would be a refreshing change of pace in the missile spam fest mwo has become.

[Leetskeet]

Specific Variants, but yes.

[Daneiel]

I agree with Sprouticus , ECM and BAP must be limited to specific variants not even a chassies , with so much customisation we lost the uniqueness of the most variants , giving the ECM/BAP to all chassies bring the electronic warefare to just a myth and role warefare will be squashed (and role warefare already took to many hits ).

[Renthrak]

Just from first impressions, it seems to me that making 'Equipment' hardpoints that function similar to AMS hardpoints is a good idea. With C3 master and slave units, Targeting Computers, BAP, ECM, Command Consoles, etc. using those hardpoints, people would have to make a choice between all the different tech goodies. This would also make it easy to vary the ability of different 'Mechs or even individual variants to carry advanced tech. The Raven could have two or three 'Equipment' hardpoints, for a BAP and ECM, and maybe a C3 slave unit or something. Many 'Mechs would have only 1 of these hardpoints, and a few would have none at all.

Variants specifically intended to use more 'advanced' technology would probably have more equipment hardpoints than simpler models. I think it would be a useful way to balance all of these different systems, making the player choose between them. "Should I put ECM on my Jenner? I'll be protected from LRMs, but I can't do anything to help the team break through enemy ECM. I could bring a BAP to cut through the jamming, but I would give up the protection of the ECM." This would expand the concept of 'scouting', since you would need a BAP-carrying 'Mech to get near enemies using ECM in order to attack with LRMs. This would also force a team to engage an enemy scout that is using ECM, since the LRM carriers wouldn't be able to deal with it on their own anymore.

As for the Catapult K2, the solution is simple: give it 1 equipment hardpoint, and put it in the head. Only a C3 unit would fit. If a team wants to protect their gaussapult, they need a second 'Mech to stand right next to it with ECM.

[Insidious Johnson]

Master the net code first. Make direct fire weapons consistent and relevant again. Then worry about the fluff that these essentially are. Leading with lasers just makes finding an on ramp to the skill curve harder for new guys. It is no wonder guided munitions are king at the moment. It is tactically a two step process to win right now: wait for and kill their scouts first, then approach their navy from cover for a close range prison marriage.

[Exilyth]

Gausscat w/BAP and ECM? No thanks...

[Zyllos]

I 100% agree. This should have already been done with Endo-Steel so that Ferro-Fiberous sees more play (except for instances where you already had Endo-Steel and have 14 more critical slots).

All but the most general of upgrades need to be chassis/variant specific. This adds character to various types of mechs. So Ferro-Fiberous, Anti-Missile System (maybe Laser Anti-Missile System?), and maybe a one or two others will be available for tonnage/criticals while everything else must exist in the chassis/variant to have it equipped.

[Belorion]

I really don't see a reason to limit it. If some Atlas pilot really wants to go all scout on us then more power too them. I would imagine that something slow and lumbering wouldn't gain a whole lot of benefit from ECM.

[Zyllos]

Belorion, on 04 November 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

I really don't see a reason to limit it. If some Atlas pilot really wants to go all scout on us then more power too them. I would imagine that something slow and lumbering wouldn't gain a whole lot of benefit from ECM.

It is not so much that we are worried about Atlas or Catapults for taking it, its that Jenners and Cicadas taking it, making the Raven useless. The Raven needs that uniqueness and that is enforced with the EW/ECM loadouts that is available on it.

You can already see this with Endo-Steel. Ferro-Fiberous is useless unless you already had Endo-Steel. If you limited Endo-Steel, the superior upgrade, to chassis/variants, then Ferro-Fiberous makes a comeback for those builds that need the extra tonnage and have a ton of criticals.

Edited by Zyllos, 04 November 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[Sprouticus]

Zyllos, on 04 November 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

It is not so much that we are worried about Atlas or Catapults for taking it, its that Jenners and Cicadas taking it, making the Raven useless. The Raven needs that uniqueness and that is enforced with the EW/ECM loadouts that is available on it.

You can already see this with Endo-Steel. Ferro-Fiberous is useless unless you already had Endo-Steel. If you limited Endo-Steel, the superior upgrade, to chassis/variants, then Ferro-Fiberous makes a comeback for those builds that need the extra tonnage and have a ton of criticals.

I agree that it would make the Raven more unique, and Im fine with that.

But it goes far beyond the Raven. If ALL variants can have ECM (and to a lesser extent BAP), PGI is forced to make sure that ECM does not make ANY variant/loadout OP (gausscats for instance). Which means ECM gets nerfed.

If you switch that and make it limited to 1 mech or even 2, you might as well not include the code in the game.

But if you have a limited rollout, you can make ECM powerful because it will only be on a limited set of mechs (hopefully mechs which are underrepresented currently).

If PGI applies it to all variants, it is going to be terrible and it will see limited use. Just like Ferro sees very limited use right now.

Edited by Sprouticus, 04 November 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[Sean von Steinike]

Redshift2k5, on 04 November 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

I hope they are implemented like jumpjets: Only legal on a mech that is supposed to have them.

Agree. It adds to the value of mechs that have it.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

I'm not sure I'd want this tech limited by chassis or variant per se. Perhaps certain mechs make better use of it. They have talked about putting 'little extras' in to add flavour to different chassis in the past. This could be an opportunity to do so. Where as a globally balanced ECM implementation might not lead to a very impressive effect, certain chassis, raven for instance, could have that more impressive effect that would be OP'd if it was generally available.

Just a thought

[Col Forbin]

Sprouticus, on 04 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

In the 'in the lab' post, Bryan indicated that they care currently doing initial balancing for ECM and that currently it is OP for some builds.


My solution would be to use ECM (and BAP) as a variant specific option, not for everyone. If they make it available to all mechs, it has to have very limited impact across all of them, which will make it pretty much useless.

Instead, use ECM as an option to make otherwise weak variants useful, as the Devs currently do with hardpoints and modules.

Again, you can do the same with BAP.


this allows you to make ECM good (not game changing) without making it useless.

I think this is probably the easiest and best way to balance this.